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Author | Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: We need to get this "still-small-voice issue clarified. I believe that I have it. Do you? Do you even want it? Or do you simply define "it" as your own conscience?
Any gods that would purposefully create *this* world of morbid depravity in which to place their greatest creation with the prospect of a large percentage of that flock being denied the still small voice and thus are to be tortured for all eternity, are not ones to be revered as infinitely loving, caring, forgiving, but are ones to be reviled as hateful, bloodthirsty and evil. We do not insist your gods act in accord with our moral views. You can make them as evil or loving as you so desire. But, if you insist your gods are responsible for this world and all that’s in it then we will judge them according to the realities we find in this world. We can judge and indict the god character, but I believe we will collectively and individually be judged by God, as described as being eternal and interactive with us as He was with Job.
If you insist that *your* gods created this world in these terms then you must accept that your gods are the greatest evil in the universe. No, I do not have any greater knowledge of either good or evil than God does. You can imagine humans as putting God On Trial. and perhaps that is a useful exercise in the expansion of our responsibility as well as His. Edited by Thugpreacha, : linkChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Although to be fair, I am still asking questions. I know that God has the answers and seek a closer meditative and prayerful relationship with Him. I don't learn much about how believers think here at EvC, but I do learn many of the lines of reasoning and questioning that lead so many in this world to reject the God of scripture. jar argues that the Bible is not a cohesive whole, but I see value in studying it that way. I also consider how he studies it, but it does not help me get closer to God. It actually causes me to understand atheism a bit better. I don't see jar as an atheist, but sometimes I wonder which side sent him as an internet teacher.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The carny cons again? Sheesh. Do you think Paul was himself a con? You do mention that he was attempting to start a new religion. One thing I like about Paul is that he teaches us to see an unknown god as a knowable God through Jesus. Do you see that in his teaching?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes:
I agree. I feel it is totally honest to sell the message of Christ in us. You seem more inclined to emphasize that it is what *we* do for others. But you believe that anyone who calls themselves a Christian automatically is one, whereas the evidence that I have seen is that it is a transition. A renewing of the mind. But we need to be honest and acknowledge when marketing happens and separate the acceptable marketing from what should not be acceptable. And that's the really hard part. What actually sells the steak and what is just selling the sizzle. One presents the reality while the other markets a fantasy.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: By "Beef" do you mean evidence? Works? or Value? Again, what does that even mean? What the hell is a "renewing of the mind"? Where's the beef?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
AZPaul3 writes: OK, let's break down the sources which believers use to assign the God we feel with definable characteristics. The Bible is of course where everybody starts, in regards to the Trinitarian Christian concept, at least. The Doctrine of the Trinity itself was contagious. Our very own jar, the sage of logic, is quoted as saying: Message 247 You can endow your gods with any attributes you may desire as long as you are logically consistent in their application.quote:. It's all "created" by humans, but some of us define this creative process as what GDR calls "Progressive Understanding." You and i approach these discussions with different worldviews. You are quite certain God does not exist in any way shape or form. I am convinced He does. Beyond that, I can agree.
jar writes: Let's agree on metaphors. First of all, I see the steak as the existence and interaction of the Creator himself. In Him is life...by definition the entire creative expressive force known as life itself. To limit your belief to what is objectively and empirically evidential, I can't prove His essence objectively though feel aware of it internally. (thus subjectively) I don't believe that the message has value, even if simply a tale told among humanity. God becomes real initially through simple faith and belief but becomes knowable through interaction. You claim that the God of evangelicals is small and pitiful. Given that you envision a larger One, communion and thoughtful meditation and interaction is quite likely. The Product is God. Modern Fundamental Evangelical Christianity seems to be nothing but feel-good slogans and FUD (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt). It appears to be 100% marketing but with absolutely no actual product. It's not even selling the sizzle, it's selling the imaginary sizzle. AddByEdit: Through Holy Communion, we become extensions of the product. Thus Christianity is about what you do and believe both. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Nor do you have a product. You let your trust in science as you understand it to eliminate any belief in God that you may have ever had. One side says "so what? The evidence shows you made him up." I don’t have a position. The other side says that belief in Him is irrelevant. That if He exists, no amount of evidence to the contrary will have any effect. Surely a God that you chose to believe in is much bigger than the tyrant that you yourself limit through the descriptions in the book (which you chose to focus on). God, if God exists is not limited to a narrative in a storybook. We believe he is good. Well...jar believes He is "complete" whatever that means. Personally, I feel that God allowed evil to exist in order to house an aspect of His completeness that He chose not to embody or internalize. hence, the attitude fell on Lucifer.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You are treating God (and/or the Risen Christ) the exact same way that you treat Santa Claus. But we've been over this before. It always jumps out at me, though. I refuse to throw God away. It puts 100% of the responsibility of good works on me. This would not be a problem in modern Christianity *if* spirit was simply a myth. But there is One God and One Holy Spirit. (no, boys and girls...it was not simply a political creation) and there are spirits of darkness. I' don't base my irrational belief on what I was taught through others. I base it on personal experience on a day to day basis. But lets set my beliefs aside for now.
jar has taught me much about personal responsibility as a Christian. The only reason I get mad at it is that it takes God out of the equation as a necessary part. Of course, he chose this belief. And if all one seeks in life is simply doing good for others, I'm quite sure that one wont be shunned by an angry God. but one may find that in these times we live in, altruistic humanism is not enough. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In my opinion, this *still small voice* is available to everyone who believes. One cannot simply hear the voice in general. Not everyone automatically gets membership in the club without some sort of intellectual surrender...at least allowing for the possibility of something that on the surface is patently absurd.
jar would call it "checking your brains at the door." I would suggest a more apt metaphor. Laying your brains on the altar. Don't fret---you will get them back. That's basically a renewing of the mind. jar would be critical, calling it accepting the con of the conmen. In a sense, critics would call it "conning yourself."\ And as to why everyone is not simply granted access? Because we would abuse the gift. The gift is not to be for our own personal gain. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
let's analyze your assertion. Why is FEC(CCoI) such a great threat? Is it due to the politics which some of them get involved in? I agree that Christians should vote their conscience and not their flesh, for conservativism is akin to Christian Nationalism, which I disagree with.
Is it their belief in general? You claim that they market fantasy but be more specific. As you know, I believe in the Spiritual realm. I have subjective experience with it, reinforced several times. I can question it, but its hard for me to doubt based on my experience. Some things are unevidenced and will remain unevidenced until after we die. I know that Santa Claus was a myth. The same cannot be said (by me, at least) of Jesus.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
US Fundamental Evangelical Christianity is the greatest of that group because it is the only body that actually has the capability to destroy humanity and since they are divorced from reality and sanity believe it is possible to destroy "THEM". Are you suggesting that they see everyone not as themselves (having a transformed mind)as the enemy? Keep in mind that even among evangelicals, only a minority have transformed minds.I know this has been true and is true for many individual members. Looking just at how the conservative Nationalists demonize Democrats is proof enough of authoritarian all-or-nothing thinking. But this is not true of all. It is likely true of the majority. Edited by Thugpreacha, : slowing the argument downChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lets cut to the chase. The inspiration behind the beliefs of many evangelicals historically has been the Romans Road To Salvation, a biblical concept.
quote:Unless you consider Paul himself to be a carny sideshow, these scriptures are the basic root of Biblical Christianity. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So it makes sense to you that your gods are powerful enough they can make a fantasy world, an after-life world, free of the morbid depravity of this actual live-reality world but are too powerless to do so in this real world? Really? we still have to collectively learn thay we cant evolve out of it. I dont know why people have a problem with God qiving us a way out of our animal selves. I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Again with the con-man reference. Whose attention am I attempting to misdirect? In my mind, I am merely supporting a position. You can't simply use the Bible to support your positions while denying me the same privilege.
In addition, this whole conman reference that you bring up ad nauseum here at EvC in regards to Evangelical Fundamentalist Christianity is an ongoing attempt to vilify me and "misdirect" the attention back to your argument. Must you bring that up every time I make a point? Finally, why do you get to support what the Bible says and I don't? Why is yours a plain reading while mine is an "attempt to palm the pea"?? I've no need to palm anything. You claim to be a believer but when we boil it all down, you only believe in what YOU can do and say and understand. You may have read the Bible, but you see no living God within its pages. The facts remain from Romans. None are righteous. All have sinned. Salvation is for everybody who is willing to accept the terms. This whole idea that everybody gets a free pass is a joke.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes: Assuming for a moment that The bigger question is why has god set the world up in this evil fashion, where every single one of his creation has to suffer in life and finally die whilst hoping that they've passed the obscure test to get into an afterlife. I just don't get why this entire experiment is necessary.1) God exists. 2) Other spirits exist. 3) Heaven exists theoretically as a destination for some but not necessarily all humans. Conclusion: Humans are part of a test. In a way, its like evolution. Survival of the fittest.The wustion is, fit for what? Assertion: God is either a simpleton or is evil. Tangle questions why this experiment is necessary. Possible reasons: 1) Given a limited degree of free will and responsibility, the humans are allowed to freely develop and grow as a species. Reason? To see if one can evolve into a creature worthy of Heaven. Problem: If God created all that is seen and unseen, why did God create evil? Either directly or non-directly? Reason: To temper and strengthen the human character. If God had simply made a universe full of good things, events, and situations, how would the human-animal be challenged to grow? Do you see where I am going with this thought experiment, Tangle? Its quite evident to me that if only good and easy things happened to me in my life, I might not evolve freely chosen decisions regarding my behavior. A starving man takes food far more seriously than a content one.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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