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Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Sez you. Many say otherwise. And surely you can't expect scientists to be able to go up to such a critter and slap a meter or measuring device on it. At best you could claim such a phenom to be a product of collective imagination, but to those who believe, the Holy Spirit serves His purpose. In fact, that is how people become believers. We believe, He responds, we receive. But He hasn't sent any comforter."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You know, Ringo I can almost foresee how your response to this post will play out.
I was talking with the minister at my Mom's memorial yesterday. He is a minister at the retirement community which Mom lived at for many years, and we were discussing belief and some of my conversions online at EvC Forum. Of course I realize that credentials mean nothing in the context of our points made in our arguments here. What I will say is that when I talk with other believers the conversations usually follow a common understanding.We believe because we are convinced. You claim to have "once been a believer" but I don't believe that you ever thought the way that believers think. You have been a skeptic from day 1. One big clue is how you argue the illogic of the 1+1+1 argument. To believers, it is patently obvious. To skeptics and unbelievers, it seems to also be blindingly obvious the other way. Rev Clavin has had a lot of experience talking with people and studying such questions and yet I was right on the page of what he believes. So now we are left with some questions. 1) Is there a "right" God? Is Jesus the only way that works or can one argue that any god will do? The short answer is that anyone could argue against Jesus being the only way and you continually do so. Since there is a spiritual conflict (which I see and believe) in the world, there never will be the obvious fact that there are not many gods. That argument is dead...you can have it. Though the only reason, I could see you believe it is that you like to argue. You really don't believe in any of them. In fact, you may argue that we humans simply make up the God we want. Your likely defense? See #2. 2) The Ringo/jar argument: Christianity is about what we do. The message. It has nothing necessarily to do with God being real. We cannot know. This is the roadblock I always end up at when debating you. More proof in my mind that you never were a believer. How is it so easy to "unbelieve"? In fact, it seems to me that both you and jar were critical thinkers first and church members second. And neither of you can allow yourselves to believe what most Christians teach (and do). You seemingly prefer the company of secular do-gooders who have a beer with you while unloading a food truck.This argument bothers me. Perhaps it should. ringo writes: This leads support to your idea that St.Anthony=Jesus=Leprechauns. Which is more evidence that you never were a believer.
many say St. Anthony comforts them. Anybody can say it. ringo writes: Convenient for whom? Ive never believed that.
It's a convenient fiction to claim that He "doesn't want to be detected". ringo writes: Why wouldn't I believe you? Perhaps because no sane person keeps a million dollars on their coffee table. But if it were in the bank, I would question you only because you claim to be lower on the economic totem pole than I am. And you are even proud of your position. Could it be that you gave away your house one spare change moment at a time? Is that why you support the idea that we ALL should give it all up? could tell you that I have a million dollars in cash on my coffee table but you can't see it because it's specially made to be invisible to make it harder to steal. You wouldn't believe me, would you? You'd say you couldn't see it because it wasn't there."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Except that Jesus never argued against God being real.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Rejecting Him....Rejecting what He taught....6 of 1 and a half dozen of another. You always. claim that I am nore anti Jesus than you are. this dead horse has been beaten enough.
I love and trust Jesus though I admittedly do not do everything He says. I am not alone in this behavior. And why you continually bring it up as an argumentative point puzzles me unless in so doing you mean to indict a larger group of Christians. is the reason you rejected Christianity at least partly to do with what you saw as hypocrisy? If so...pot meet kettle. Edited by Phat, : furthermore"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You predict something, I explain how you're wrong and then you make the same prediction as if I had never said anything. True. Im not ignoring you so much as I am reframing and rephrasing my argument. i dont look up everything you have said in the archives. Repitition happens. You don't pay any attention to what I actually say. You believe what you want to believe, with no reference to reality. Oh I try and understand you. To do that I attempt to engage you in dialogue."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Explain why 1+1+1=1 makes no sense And you repeatedly refuse to talk about apologetics. How is any of that attempting to engage me in dialogue?Can you conceive of a Creator of all seen and unseen? Can you conceive. of such a Being imparting His character into a human? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Three and one at the same time is not possible. First off, what defines possible? Second, can you see a Creator and His human character operating at once as Two(essentially becoming One?) Third, if the Creator of all seen and unseen so wanted, He could become all (pantheism) or infuse many sons and daughters (polytheism) and argue that either scenario is still Monotheism. Im speculating, but I still don't see your logic that 3 and 1 at the same time is impossible. With God ALL things are possible. I suppose that He could theoretically turn Ringo into a woman...or a bumblebee. What rules and guidelines would humans even be able to agree upon regarding the character and limits (f any) for God? I can hear you now...."science" you exclaim proudly."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Paul the Apostle seems to think that everyone has rejected Him.
I'd like to think that some people would take rejecting Jesus more seriously than you do. Romans 3:10-11 NKJV writes: And this is the Apostle Paul...not some Pastafarian, or Leprechaunian or Buddhist. This is the man who argued philosophy.
As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. Acts 17:16-32 NKJV writes: Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols. Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there. Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign gods,” because he preached to them Jesus and the resurrection. And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new doctrine is of which you speak? For you are bringing some strange things to our ears. Therefore we want to know what these things mean.” For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing. Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, (Or Leprechaun, or human tradition or Loki or some Hindu statue)something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” So Paul departed from among them. However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them. The dusty old book explains itself quite well."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
why must I listen to a character in a book? Seems a bit obsessive to me.
And if you care to share, why did you lose your house?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I keep asking you, if you're going to make up your own character, why do you even call him "Jesus"? How do you know He isn't? Some authors made up the Jesus in the book, according to you. You can't hold me to a standard that you don't believe to be real. And if you argue that you can, I ask you why my Jesus cannot be considered. The other Jesus is the product of human authorship....whats the difference? Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Not nearly as crazy as communing with voices in your head. So if I wrote a story and narrated it to you on Audible, you would essentially be listening to voices in my head(and in my book) Again I ask you what the difference is. What good is it to have a stern commanding Jesus who tells us we must do the same as the rich young ruler...(who refused to listen too, by the way) and not relate to His character any more than people relating to our characters in our head? As for Charlie Manson, he was either certifiably deranged or harboring demons. You can't argue my argument borrowing my beliefs to do so when you in fact (as does Tangle) see only characters in a book."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
My excuse, if I have one, is Message 497 Romans 3:10-11.
You don't get that nobody does what they should, though some put on a show."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
The dusty old book explains itself quite well.Then why do you reject it when it says things you don't want to hear? back atcha.
Dusty Old Book,Jesus speaking writes: And you have the gall to suggest that only the message is important and that the messenger is little more than an envelope. 48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. Your excuse has been that you are not a believer. Essentially you only use the parts of the message that support Socialism...which you like. The idea that you don't need to pay taxes to Caesar, perhaps? The fact that nothing belongs to any of us anyway and is essentially communally shared? The idea that the ravens (and liberal neighbors) will feed you and give you spare change? Truly we differ. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So what happened to the Holy Spirit?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
[
dwise1 writes: Good point. A Theist might try and find an answer that prevents cognitive dissonance. A critically thinking scholar may throw God away (or at least the Holy Spook and conclude that it is all simply mythos. So why couldn't the Holy Spirit have been able to keep straight one single story? Why is it instead that each and every single different denomination and sect each got a different story of the same "single and eternal truth"? 45,000 of them? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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