Why do Christians make God out to be dumb?

If it's too easy, you're still negligent.It's too easy to ignore conscience, too easy to disobey God's laws. Too easy by far to visit terrible consequences on folks who don't deserve them. Ergo, God is negligent. Free will is not contingent on the existence of evil. Firstly, there's an infinte number of ways to do the right thing. Therefore taking away the wrong choices still leaves you with infinite choice.Secondly evil doesn't increase choice, it decreases choice. That's what's so evil about it. The single choice to commit murder robs the victim of a lifetime of choices. That's a net loss of choice. Heed the words of J-Lo: Love don't cost a thing. Possessions and success aren't love, they're empty promises. bribes. Well, I'm not convinced by arguments from ineffability, but I can't refute them, either. If it's your position that it's God's choice to act in ways that don't make sense to us, what can I say? If God chooses to act in a way that makes him indistinguishable from a God who doesn't exist at all, then he can hardly blame people for not believing in him.I just can't imagine what would attract you to a God who you can't count on. But then, people return to abusive relationships too, or even seek them out.

1) Man has an Anima, a psychic entity, which is like a tree of mental strength in the form of Intuition. This invaluable asset to the distinctively unique Homo Sapiens mind also, added to intuition, has an ancient sense of spiritual association with the external world (the reality outside of the mind). This may well be the first spark to our equally unique Human Consciousness. There is a whole other Universe "out there."2) The Anima is a word choice that tells more about this characteristic apparatus of our mind. It is derived from the Latin, and, there, means "that mind so clearly evident in women," hence, woman's intuitition. Animism is rooted in this word also. ANIMISM is recognized as a form of religious content implicit in the mind, founded in the archetypal entity, the Anima.3) Man is born with a mental construct, the Anima, which promote the thoughts of spiritualism, believes that spiritual entities exist outside ofbone's self. Even that inorganic matter has soul, that the world of the unseen exists..
This was one of the determining factors in the consideration of researchers of Neanderthal, by which Neanderthal's humanity was established. That Neanderthal buried his dead and evidence ritual in funeral artifacts has been enough to establish him as both aware of a higher power and closely related to ourselves.4) Animism is our normal state. It is a full member of the human psyche. The mystery of how this evolved mental capacity can best serve man, as part of his survival tools, being one of the sevenfold archetypical parts of man's psyche,
remains to be seen. (Certainly, the Environmentalist would recognize the support that this Jungian Functional mode of thinking gives to his own sense of man's link to the world we live in.)5) Judaeo-christian teaching is linked to and rooted in this Animism. Religion in Western Culture now has a rule book, Scripture, which gives bounds to individual intuitive animisms. It also connects the sense of an "evironmental outer world" to the mind's thinking, with the link to team play with other members of society. In this, man is recognizing, religiously and intuitively, that charity and brotherly love with ourselves supports a similar relationship between ourselves and our environment.6) In this realization, the Environment stretches to the ends of the Universe today.
It is the reality of this universe, beyond ourselves, which stimulates both our consciousness concerning it, and our recognition that it, the Universe, is all powerful, changing itself, as we must adapt to it, and essentially, God of the living and ruler of our destiny. Semantically, our God, Father in the heavens of our mind and vastness of the Universe, our Father Nature, is our Almighty. Semantics.7) Jesus did for us, in re-directing our animism towards these considerations, what Martin Luther King, Jr did for American civil liberties.In martrydom, both got the needed attention of our Conscious mind to focus, collectively, on an essential evolutionary step forward in human understanding.

I know I'm WAY late in this thread, but I just had to respond to this:

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Christian teaching about kindness, love and compassion is different than the way most people treat each other. Unfortunately some Christians and churches dont always succeed.

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The very most kind and wonderful people I have ever known, almost to a person, have been non-religious and/or athiest.The very most narrow-minded, judgemental, nasty people I have ever known, almost to a person, have been religios, mostly Christian.In general, I think that the core thrust of many Christian sects is the notion that they are the special, chosen group. This leads to in-group thinking, which in turn leads to feeling superior to other groups.Another particularly troblesome part of Christianity is one that naturally grows out of this arrogance of considering itself the One True Religion(TM); constant efforts to convert others to their sect.This has naturally led to Christians having undue influence over what it taught in public schools, our laws, the funding for art, etc.

I am guessing you have never heard of Howard Conder then. Infact, according to the scripture the Jews are God's people, and never haven't been. We are not a "chosen" group, God welcomes all, we may ALL be chosen but there is no barrier, Christ says he wishes no-one to perish, and anyone who comes to him will in no wise be cast out. Again, this is certainly not the case among all christians. The Jewish people worship the same God.Also, I have stated on this site that if Muslims worship God I do not necessarily see that as a bad thing. I think but I can't know for sure, that the Quran mentions the OT and NT, I've even heard it suggests following it. (Only heresay though).So, we are obviously going to think our religion is true or we wouldn't follow it. Does this make us arrogant? - only as arrogant as the next religion! Hmmmm...

In this alligator analogy of yours, the ease of access to the pool could be through a hole in the fence caused by vandals. These "vandals" could be seen as a representation of Satan, who's nature, contrary to God's, is evil. He has weakened mankind's will, making it easier for us to sin. It's not God's fault the hole got there and He will fix it, as can be read in the book of Revelation when the Second coming is described. Even if there were infinite good choices, we would still be "programmed" to do only good. That's not what God wanted for us. He wanted us to have the ability to choose good, with the possiblity of choosing evil. God's "free will" for us is not just choice itself, but rather the choice between good and evil, not just a number of choices for good. I don't quite get how God could intend to bribe you with things that distract you from Him. How could He bribe you to devote your entire life to Him, when the things He "bribes" you with distract you from Him? God knows that anyone who doesn't belive in Him could not be bribed to believe in Him, because they wouldn't thank Him or praise Him for any of it and would just enjoy it without thinking. How are they empty promises? God doesn't promises you these things in heaven, He promises you much more, if you were stuck in heaven with only the same things you had on Earth, it would undoubtedly get boring. However, heaven is perfection, paradise, you just can't get bored of perfection. You can only see where God is working if you have a personal relationship with Him. However, I can't make you believe in God, let alone enter into a personal relationship with Him, but I can offer a suggestion (whether you actually do it or not is up to you). First, be willing to belive that God exists and loves you, then pray and ask the Spirit of Truth (the Holy Spirit) to reveal the truth of Christ to you. After you have done that, read through Hebrews 10 (BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.). It doesn't take long, but as I said, do it only if you feel like it because there is no way that I can make you.Edited: Also, I ould suggest reading a few of the daily devotionals at Christianity - Beliefs and History of Faith in God and Jesus Christ (very bottom of the left side menu). They take maybe a minute or two each to read and there is a new one every day.[This message has been edited by SoulFire, 04-09-2004]

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"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

And Crash.....please be sure to snap a digital photo of you reading the text so we can all verify you did it.

If you know the hole is there, and you don't take steps to fix it, you're criminally negligent. Arey ou saying that Satan's actions are hidden from God? He should have done it already. He has the power to do so, don't you agree? If he's waiting for something, he's responsible for everything that's coming through the hole in the meantime. I still don't believe that free will is contingent on the existence of evil. For instance, is there free will in heaven? If so, must there be evil? Can God do evil? if not, does God have free will? I did, though. The problem was that whenever I thought I was talking to God, it turned out I was talking to myself. Why would I pray to something that doesn't exist?

Ok, so you blame God for the existence of sin, I can't stop you from doing that. I've tried, but I failed. God is outside of time, not bound by it like we are. If God wanted to He could go back to the Garden of Eden and remove the serpent before it deceived Eve. I don't know why He didn't or doesn't, but neither you or I can tell God what He should or shouldn't do. Would you agree that "free will" could be described as our personal consciousness or decisions affecting the physical world? If so, then would you also agree that if we choose to do something nice for someone (like picking something up for them after they have dropped it), then they may think we are kind and thank us. On the other hand, if you decide to walk by them and ingore them, they may dislike you. You could be mean (or indifferent) or kind to someone in many different ways, but they will all have basicly the same affect (the person may like you and thank you, or despise you, or think nothing of you). If the only choices you have (good) have basicly the same affect, then what you do would happen whether you really chose to do it or not. That kind of thing would be more like fate than free will.
As for there being free will in Heaven, I can't answer that for certain because I have never been there. Though I can make a guess, Satan has no power in Heaven, so He wouldn't be able to persuade or deceive us to do evil, even though we would still have the capability of it. Or maybe there is a difference between Earthly free will and Heavenly free will, I would be unable say what it is, so don't bother asking me, it is just a guess.
Of course God has free will, but sin belongs to Satan, and God being far more powerful than Satan is unaffected by him. God may be capable of evil, but He chooses not to do it. I can't judge you based on what you said here, but you may have been mistaken in thinking you had that which you didn't. If you choose not to believe then I can't make you. Though I do stand by my suggestion to read the Bible, with or without praying before hand.

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"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

I disagree. According to God and the Bible we have the same ability to tell right from wrong that God does. If that's the case, then how do you even know that you're a real Christian?

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I am guessing you have never heard of Howard Conder then. Infact, according to the scripture the Jews are God's people, and never haven't been. We are not a "chosen" group, God welcomes all, we may ALL be chosen but there is no barrier, Christ says he wishes no-one to perish, and anyone who comes to him will in no wise be cast out.

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Mr. Conder sounds like he has a kind theology.I don't think that all of those Christians, who have told me that I am going to hell have heard of Mr. Conder's work, either.

I said nothing about us not being able to tell right from wrong, what I said is that we can't tell God what to do, as in give Him orders or directions.

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I have alot more to go on than just a statement that goes something like "I did, though. The problem was that whenever I thought I was talking to God, it turned out I was talking to myself." I myself cannot say that I have a good, strong relationship with God, but I'm more than willing to work on it. Aside from that, being Christian is believing in Christ, belonging to a religion, not necessarily having the personal relationship God designed you to have with Him. Having a personal relationship with God Himself is much more than just a religion.

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"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

No, but what we can do is determine, using the same moral sense that God does, if God's actions are consistent with God's morals.That's not us holding God accountable to ourselves. That's holding God accountable to Himself, and it's a logical extension of our ability to determine right from wrong like God does. As far as I could tell, I had such a relationship. Then I came to know that God doesn't exist, and that the only relationship I had was with myself.How do you know that you have such a relationship? How do you know you're not just talking to yourself and making coincidences out to be communications from God?

Well, those christians telling you that you are going to hell have not read the NT. "Judge not, unless you be judged".(similar words)Likewise, it is not my business whether you are going to heaven or hell. It is my duty to tell you about heaven and hell, and what Christ has said and warned us about these places. They cannot possibly know where you will end up. Nor can they know for sure where they will end up. Many will claim to know christ but he said that he will say "I never knew you". If these people are hypocrites and users of Christ's words for their own means then I do not favour their chances of heaven. listen to the Master, not the servants.

Sorry, but I don't quite follow, determine what?

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How, exactly, did you come to know God doesn't exist?

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I don't know that I have such a relationship with God, I wish there was some easy way to tell but there isn't. I try not to make "coincidences out to be communications from God", but I have faith that He will make Himself known to me. I live by faith, that is how I choose to live. Ridicule me if you want, but we all have hope, and I place mine in God.

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"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

Determine whether or not the actions of God are moral. That's what we're talking about. If your God existed, we would live in a different universe than we do. From the evidence of the universe there are only two possible conclusions - God exists but acts like he doesn't; or God doesn't exist. Option one doesn't really make any sense. And that's fine. You get to put your hope in whatever you please. I choose to put my hope in entities and agencies whose existence can be substantiated.I don't think any less of you for making a different choice, and I hope you respect my choices in turn.