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Author Topic:   What Is The Positive Evidence For Atheism?
nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 301 (435717)
11-22-2007 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
11-22-2007 10:40 AM


Re: What came first? God or Dirt?
quote:
This whole idea of not knowing really bothers me.
I think that many people feel that they have to be believers simply because they feel uncomfortable not knowing.
That's what I've been saying for years and years, you know.
I know this is going to sound patronizing, but in my opinion it is a matter of maturity to accept that the universe doesn't owe us any answers.
I would much rather let mysteries be mysteries rather than believe something out of fear or comfort.
The truth is more important than my feelings.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 11-22-2007 10:40 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Chiroptera, posted 11-22-2007 3:27 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 301 (435719)
11-22-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Omnivorous
11-22-2007 12:18 PM


Re: Logic test
quote:
Right now, I'm peeling my Yukon Golds while the garlic roasts. Then, I'll bake a pumpkin pie with my secret family recipe; next, sautee celery and onion for the stuffing. After all that, I'll enjoy an anticipatory nap before proceeding.
Work, work, work: an epicure's job is never done.
I've got the cranberry tangerine relish, the sausage and onion stuffing, and the pumpkin cheesecake done. (the stuffing needs to bake yet)
The bird just went into the oven, the neck and giblets are simmering with carrots, an onion, and parley stems on the stovetop for the gravy later.
The walnuts are toasted for the Belgian endive, apple, and blue cheese salad with sherry vinegar and walnut oil dressing.
Got to let that blue cheese come up to room temperature, peel the russets for mashed potatoes, and trim the asparagus.
I've paced myself pretty well, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Omnivorous, posted 11-22-2007 12:18 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Omnivorous, posted 11-22-2007 4:42 PM nator has not replied
 Message 52 by bluegenes, posted 11-22-2007 4:56 PM nator has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 301 (435729)
11-22-2007 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by nator
11-22-2007 2:48 PM


Quotable quote.
...the universe doesn't owe us any answers.
This is a very nice way of putting it.

Computers have cut-and-paste functions. So does right-wing historical memory. -- Rick Perlstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by nator, posted 11-22-2007 2:48 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by nator, posted 11-22-2007 4:03 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 301 (435748)
11-22-2007 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
11-22-2007 10:40 AM


Re: What came first? God or Dirt?
This whole idea of not knowing really bothers me.
Um... but if you make up your answer, you don't know it just as much as you didn't know it before you made up your answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 11-22-2007 10:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 11-23-2007 2:54 AM Jon has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2201 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 50 of 301 (435753)
11-22-2007 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Chiroptera
11-22-2007 3:27 PM


Re: Quotable quote.
quote:
This is a very nice way of putting it.
Thanks!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Chiroptera, posted 11-22-2007 3:27 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3992
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 51 of 301 (435760)
11-22-2007 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by nator
11-22-2007 2:55 PM


Re: Logic test
nator writes:
The walnuts are toasted for the Belgian endive, apple, and blue cheese salad with sherry vinegar and walnut oil dressing.
Mmmmm.

Real things always push back.
-William James
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 11-22-2007 2:55 PM nator has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2508 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 52 of 301 (435761)
11-22-2007 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by nator
11-22-2007 2:55 PM


Cooking it back towards the topic!
nator writes:
I've got the cranberry tangerine relish, the sausage and onion stuffing......
Sounds more like positive evidence for heaven on earth than positive evidence for atheism. Mouth watering!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 11-22-2007 2:55 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by nator, posted 11-23-2007 5:01 PM bluegenes has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 53 of 301 (435765)
11-22-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Parasomnium
11-22-2007 2:31 PM


Re: Two different universes
Parasomnium writes:
I strongly disagree with this: in a universe with a god anything can happen, the god can suspend the laws of nature whenever he pleases, so they aren't really laws of nature at all.
I wasn't referring to the god of the old testament. I was referring to the god here and now. So far, I haven't seen a single piece of evidence that would suggest this omnipotent god would have any affect on the physical reality that I live in. This, of course, doesn't mean that god does not exist. It just means that so far the universe that I live in is identical to a universe that doesn't have a god.
Admittedly, if the god keeps himself well hidden from us and stays out of our affairs, his universe may well be indistinguisable from a universe without him, but in principle they are not identical.
Well, in principal a room with an immaterial pink unicorn is different than a room without an immaterial pink unicorn. But the question is how the flying squirrel do you tell the difference between the two?

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Parasomnium, posted 11-22-2007 2:31 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 7:45 PM Taz has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 54 of 301 (435778)
11-22-2007 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taz
11-22-2007 6:13 PM


Re: Two different universes
Taz writes:
I wasn't referring to the god of the old testament. I was referring to the god here and now. So far, I haven't seen a single piece of evidence that would suggest this omnipotent god would have any affect on the physical reality that I live in. This, of course, doesn't mean that god does not exist. It just means that so far the universe that I live in is identical to a universe that doesn't have a god.
You have no way of knowing that. All we know is how things are. If God exists we have no idea what it would look like if He were to retire or resign.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Taz, posted 11-22-2007 6:13 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Taz, posted 11-22-2007 8:42 PM GDR has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 55 of 301 (435783)
11-22-2007 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by GDR
11-22-2007 7:45 PM


Re: Two different universes
GDR writes:
You have no way of knowing that. All we know is how things are. If God exists we have no idea what it would look like if He were to retire or resign.
Ok, let's suppose that there is a god. How does this help us better understand the physical universe we are in?
Let me be more specific. Can you think of any single natural phenomenon that requires a miracle being to exist? Can you name one mathematical equation that describes a physical system that also has a variable "god" in there?
Again, I must go back to the immaterial pink unicorn. Suppose we are in a room. Someone comes up with the idea that there might be an immaterial pink unicorn standing in the room with us. What's the point of believing in its existence if there is no conceivable way we can detect this immaterial pink unicorn?

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 7:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 9:15 PM Taz has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 56 of 301 (435785)
11-22-2007 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Taz
11-22-2007 8:42 PM


Re: Two different universes
Taz writes:
Let me be more specific. Can you think of any single natural phenomenon that requires a miracle being to exist? Can you name one mathematical equation that describes a physical system that also has a variable "god" in there?
If there is a god then all natural phenomenon and mathematical equations required the miracle of creation.
Taz writes:
Again, I must go back to the immaterial pink unicorn. Suppose we are in a room. Someone comes up with the idea that there might be an immaterial pink unicorn standing in the room with us. What's the point of believing in its existence if there is no conceivable way we can detect this immaterial pink unicorn?
It is apples and oranges. The discussion of whether Theism or Atheism is true is largely dependent on what we are to make of our world and the universe, of the fact that we have emotions and can make moral decisions etc. There is non-scientific evidence available and we can all come to our own conclusions about that non-scientific evidence. There is also a large body of people that do believe that there a god in one form or another exists. Nobody believes in immaterial pink unicorns. There is no evidence scientific or non-scientific for an immaterial pink unicorn.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Taz, posted 11-22-2007 8:42 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 11-22-2007 10:12 PM GDR has replied
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 11-22-2007 10:20 PM GDR has replied
 Message 70 by bluegenes, posted 11-23-2007 7:02 AM GDR has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 57 of 301 (435788)
11-22-2007 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by GDR
11-22-2007 9:15 PM


Re: Two different universes
GDR writes:
If there is a god then all natural phenomenon and mathematical equations required the miracle of creation.
Right, right. Can you give us the mathematical equation(s) that represent this miracle of creation?
The discussion of whether Theism or Atheism is true is largely dependent on what we are to make of our world and the universe, of the fact that we have emotions and can make moral decisions etc.
Are you trying to say that I'm a murderer and a rapist?
There is also a large body of people that do believe that there a god in one form or another exists. Nobody believes in immaterial pink unicorns.
Ok, how about goblins? What about doppelgangers? What about the alien race called the Zeta?
GDR, just because a bunch of people are delusional doesn't necessarily make the delusion true. I've seen your posts enough to know you are well aware of this logical fallacy. Are you playing dumb or are you lying for your faith?

Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 9:15 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 11:15 PM Taz has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 58 of 301 (435790)
11-22-2007 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by GDR
11-22-2007 9:15 PM


Re: Two different universes
GDR writes:
If there is a god then all natural phenomenon and mathematical equations required the miracle of creation.
I don't see any particular reason to conflate gods with creation. Why can't we have gods poking their noses into a universe they didn't create?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 9:15 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 11:23 PM ringo has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 59 of 301 (435794)
11-22-2007 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Taz
11-22-2007 10:12 PM


Re: Two different universes
Taz writes:
Right, right. Can you give us the mathematical equation(s) that represent this miracle of creation?
Would the mathematical formula used to indicate the time of the BB qualify.
Taz writes:
Are you trying to say that I'm a murderer and a rapist?
No. I'm have no idea of why you would infer that I am. Being a Christian does not mean that I am ging to be a "better" person than my Atheistic next door neighbour.
Taz writes:
GDR, just because a bunch of people are delusional doesn't necessarily make the delusion true. I've seen your posts enough to know you are well aware of this logical fallacy. Are you playing dumb or are you lying for your faith?
I'm not saying that it does. However I am just making the point that if there is a latge percentage of people believe somrthing is true, it should be considered differntly than something that nobody believes is true. However, that in no way proves that it is correct.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 11-22-2007 10:12 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Taz, posted 11-23-2007 12:56 AM GDR has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 60 of 301 (435795)
11-22-2007 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
11-22-2007 10:20 PM


Re: Two different universes
Ringo writes:
I don't see any particular reason to conflate gods with creation. Why can't we have gods poking their noses into a universe they didn't create?
Whether there are other gods or not isn't really germane. All we are talking about is basic Theism which, as I see it implies an intelligence that is responsible for all that there is.
By the way, as I'm originally from the Hat I figure that I'm close enough to be considered an honourary citizen of that province for yours for the weekend. Go Riders.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 11-22-2007 10:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 11-23-2007 12:45 AM GDR has replied

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