What Is The Positive Evidence For Atheism?

I didn't say anything about "other" gods. I'm questioning whether any gods need to have been responsible for creation. In Greek and Norse mythology, for example, the gods seem to be a product of the creation rather than the source of it. Some forms of theism do posit their gods as the creators of everything, but it's hardly a prerequisite.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

Ok, forget immaterial pink unicorn. What about witches, aliens, and a myriad other supernatural creatures that many people believe in? Then stop bring morality into this issue. GDR, just don't try to deny it. I've talked to enough christians to know this is essentially the crux of the matter everytime morality is brought into this issue, that atheists can't have any moral. Then provide it and point to me where the miracle part is.

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Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

We can come to our own conclusions as to whether there is a creator god or not, or for that matter whether one was necessary or not. I believe that a creative intelligence is necessary and that one does exist.I have never denied the people have and do believe in gods that aren't a source of creation. So what?

Well, you did say in Message 56:

quote:

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If there is a god then all natural phenomenon and mathematical equations required the miracle of creation.

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If you're agreeing that that "requirement" is only in your head, we're fine.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

Here is what I said. How do you construe that to mean That I am making any judgement about your morals or anybody else's for that matter. I am just saying that people have a sense of morality.I repeat. My being a Christian does not necessarily make me a more moral person than my next door neighbour. How can I be more clear? This of course has absolutely nothing to do with my original point. The miracle part is, if my beliefs are correct, is that we have something instead of nothing. I attribute that to a prime mover for which we have no mathematical formula and no scientifc proof.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

If you note, I did say IF there is a god....

How would we ever know that an answer was real or imaginary? not everything in life is measurable or quantifiable.....some things cannot be quantified rationally.

No other way... sorry, man. Reason and logic is all we have. You can't just make stuff up without reason. IF you make it up,l you must test it against logc... place ina dsimple Jon

So why is atheism illogical? All they do is assert no evidence.

What, exactly, is non-scientific evidence? When lots of children were brought up in animist cultures, there were lots of adult animists. When lots of children were brought up in polytheistic cultures, there were lots of adult polytheists. Most of the world's children are now brought up in monotheistic cultures (counting Hinduism as monotheism) and the result is, as you say, a large body of monotheists.None of this says anything about any truth in animism, polytheism or monotheism, but it does show that our species is damn good at inventing religions, and in blindly believing in the inventions of others."Free thinkers" recommend that people think for themselves, rather than following their parents and/or the predominant beliefs in the society around them. Which gives them the same status as the Abrahamic God just before Abraham invented it. Something they have in common with all other proposed supernatural entities, then, isn't it?

The fact that there is something instead of nothing--that we have consciousness -- that we seem to have a moral code -- that we experience beauty etc. We can all draw our own conclusions. I'm all for free thinking but a free thinker can come to the same conclusions as their parents or their society. ---or before he was divinely inspired. If you don't believe that there is anything more than the material then of course you are going to believe that it was all human invention. However, he must have been a free thinker because here was this desert nomad who came up with something very different than the pagan societies that surrounded and dominated him.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

But this is just it. How do we know the "something instead of nothing" part isn't an inevitable thing? Also, how is this not GOTG?

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Owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have occasionally used the academic jargon generator to produce phrases that even I don't fully understand. The jargons are not meant to offend anyone or to insult anyone's intelligence!

There being something is just evidence that there's something. Consciousness, morals and the experience of beauty can be examined scientifically, although they're all complicated. Having morals isn't surprising. They're behaviour standards that are advantageous in a social species. There are other animals that will look after each other. What thought processes made you pick out Christianity from the pile of religions and philosophies you could have chosen, and how old were you when you did this, may I ask?What made you think that St. Paul was in touch with God, and Mohamed wasn't? Why don't you believe in reincarnation? You wouldn't have to believe that there is nothing more than the material to make an educated guess that Abraham's God was an invention. As humans are always inventing Gods, pick any one at random and the chances are it's an invention. So different? A God who might want a human sacrifice? A God who would want people tortured to death for working on his Sabbath? A jealous God who wants the wholesale slaughter of people (and their children) if they turn to worshipping other Gods? A God who would wipe out all but one family of a species he created in a flood for being evil, without saving the blameless children?Have you ever actually read the book you believe to be holy?Well, the pagan Gods were probably a bit kinder and gentler, it's true.

And that's what I've been addressing: IF there is a god or gods, there is no "requirement" that he/she/it/they had anything whatsoever to do with creating the universe.The universe and every flock of gods might have always existed in one form or another ("always" being a bit tenuous in the "time" before time. ) Or some gods might have been around for a long while and some might have popped up out of nowhere last Friday, when the universe was already a day old.There simply is no "required" relationship between gods and creation.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

I'm not saying that it is something we know like we know the earth is round. We all work out what we believe makes the most sense of the world we experiemce. We have come to different conclusions.I think the GOTG thing is way over used. We don't at this point know why there is something instead of nothing. Is it a gap? Sure. I fill it with God and you fill it with the natural and say that someday science may figure it all out. Take your pick. GOTG or SOTG.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.