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Author Topic:   Best Evidence Macro-Evolution
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 10 of 164 (654485)
03-01-2012 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by idscience
03-01-2012 5:17 PM


I am interested in todays best evidence for macro-evolution.
Genetics, morphology, biogeography, the fossil record, that sort of thing.
With the phylogentic tree falling apart ...
... without any actual scientists noticing this remarkable event ...
... and the failures of bacteria experiments to produce organisms with significant information gain ...
... something that creationists are unable or unwilling to define ...
... I am wondering if there is anything else evolution has to offer.
You mean, apart from consistency with all the facts? No, in that respect it is in just the same boat as every other scientific theory.
The only disputed ground between evolution and ID is macro-evolution.
Try telling that to Michael Behe.
I don't accept homology and morphology as evidence as it is inference without testability, and a circular argument.
That would be a more compelling argument if it meant anything.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 164 (654487)
03-01-2012 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by idscience
03-01-2012 8:01 PM


Re: Got evidence or reasoning?
I would say homology and morphology is equally supportive of common descent and common design.
And if saying things made them true, creationists would long since have achieved victory, as would flat-earthers.
I would say homology is a good case to infer common ancestor. The circular reasoning I see is, because evolution is a fact, similar structures and systems show relationship to common ancestors. Because the fossil record shows the relationships with common ancestors, evolution is a fact.
Because homology isn't evidence, but inference and conjecture, it is inconclusive and cannot be used to dogmatically state evolution is a fact. In my opinion. ID could make the same claim.
The fossil record shows similarities between organisms. The rest is assumption based on the predetermined belief it is evolution that caused this similarity.
You seem to have failed to understand the argument. This leaves you in a different position from scientists, who do.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 20 of 164 (654498)
03-01-2012 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by idscience
03-01-2012 8:32 PM


Re: Macroevolution is a fact.
So for you, the best evidence is that the world has different varieties of life in it, and the fossil record pretty much shows us what we see today?
Oh my.
There isn't a big enough palm or a big enough face.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 164 (654499)
03-01-2012 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by idscience
03-01-2012 8:40 PM


Re: Got evidence or reasoning?
Nothing is being tested.
Evolution is being tested. By looking at the evidence, and seeing if it fits with the predictions of the theory.
This is what is known as "science".
I like it better than your way of vaguely rambling about stuff that you've clearly never bothered to study or tried to understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by idscience, posted 03-01-2012 8:40 PM idscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by idscience, posted 03-01-2012 10:47 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 27 of 164 (654507)
03-01-2012 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by idscience
03-01-2012 9:25 PM


Re: Please define macroevolution first.
Modern Evolutionary Synthesis states that an undirected process of random mutation along with natural selection is sufficient to produce completely new body plans. ID does not hold that this mechanism is sufficient. Natural selection as stated above is responsible for limited changes and that is non controversial. The increase of information needed to accomplish novel structures like limbs, new organs, and wings can not be accomplished by a step by step random mutation and selection process.
Well I know why you didn't even try to put up a shred of a scrap of a scintilla of an argument for that assertion. But do you?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 33 of 164 (654514)
03-01-2012 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by idscience
03-01-2012 10:47 PM


Re: Got evidence or reasoning?
Your chosen title for this thread was, I believe, "Best Evidence Macro-Evolution" and not "Every Dumb Mistake That Any Creationist Has Ever Made About Anything".
I am disinclined to participate in a Gish Gallop, so why don't you pick your very favorite creationist blunder and start a thread in which it would be on topic?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by idscience, posted 03-02-2012 12:04 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 34 of 164 (654515)
03-01-2012 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by idscience
03-01-2012 11:14 PM


Re: so can you define macroevolution or not?
Look at the premise of your question. "that is not due to common descent".
If I was asked for (let us say) an instance of a fire that is not due to a fire-breathing dragon, I would just answer the question. I wouldn't whine about the fact that the question included the words "that is not due to a fire-breathing dragon". But then, I'd be right, and so I would in fact be able to produce such instances with ease.
Common descent is not a fact, it is an inference from a predetermined bias that it did indeed happen.
Interesting lie. What a shame you can't argue for it. But you can say it. I bet you can say it a whole lot.
Horizontal Gene Transfer seems like a work around for what was not predicted.
To render that sentence accurate, you'd want the words "to mad people" between the words "seems" and "like".
If you look at enough contradictions to predictions, at some point you need to step back and take a look. Evolutionists, won't do that because, the fixed dogma is that it happened, and they just have to figure out how it happened. That is the bias that blinds observation and discoveries like non coding DNA having function.
That is a falsehood so vast it would make Satan himself shudder.
Who do you think found out about the functionality of non-coding DNA and passed that information on to you and your pathetic cult? Do you suppose it was a bunch of dumbass creationists? You think that one day they paused from spewing out fatuous gibberish about subjects of which they were ignorant and did some sodding science? No, it was done by evolutionists, and now that they've informed you about it, you have the gall to whine about how they are "blind" to the stuff they looked for, painstakingly discovered, and then spoonfed to you while you were sitting on your flatulent creationist ass whining about them.
The fact that we are three pages into this and not one piece of empirical evidence has been brought forth ...
... apart from the whole of morphology, the whole of the fossil record, the whole of the genetic record, and the whole of biogeography.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by idscience, posted 03-01-2012 11:14 PM idscience has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by idscience, posted 03-02-2012 12:18 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 37 of 164 (654519)
03-02-2012 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by idscience
03-02-2012 12:04 AM


Re: Got evidence or reasoning?
If you noticed the title was for your participation. There is nothing in the title about me defending my position. It is a request for evidence from you. Typically, there are some who will side step the issue by turning tables.
In stead of a simple response of "here is my best evidence", my positions have been questioned, and I was asked to cite sources, which I did. apparently they are not enough for you either. I have noticed you offer no rebut, but, have found it reasonable to denounce me for stating and citing my position. Now typically, the one to offer no evidence throws in the towel after one last insult. I am not surprised but I am disappointing.
You are now lying about the course of this thread.
So much evidence has been pointed out to you that it would take you several lifetimes to look at it all. You have responded by reciting random bits of creationist dogma.
I am not interested in debating the weaknesses as I see them with evolution here ...
Then you have dissimulated your disinterest with great care.
The point of this thread is to find the best empirical reasons to side with step by step slow building of organisms. Homology and morphology I can see the logic to conclude common ancestry. Is there any empirical evidence? ID is continually slammed for not producing empirical evidence. The question of this thread is, Do you have any? I will take TWO.
See my first post on this thread.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 38 of 164 (654520)
03-02-2012 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by idscience
03-02-2012 12:18 AM


Re: so can you define macroevolution or not?
In 1994 Mims III submitted a paper about junk dna and it was rejected.
That's not a paper. That's a letter. A paper has more than one paragraph, does not begin with the words "To the Editor", and traditionally contains some actual research.
I did cite a source from 1994 that suggested the so called junk DNA had function.
Wow, so as far back as 1994 creationists were suggesting that non-coding DNA had function?
So, that would be only three decades after real scientists described the structure of tRNA, right? And only two decades after the discovery of introns and alternative gene splicing? And ... I can't even find out how long ago scientists discovered promoter regions. If I google on "discovery of the promoter region", I get such hits as this paper from 1981, but they're talking about the discovery of a particular promoter region for a particular gene, not the discovery of promoter regions in general. That seems to be lost in the mists of time ... can anyone tell me whe the concept was discovered?
But, hooray!, as far back as 1994, creationist nutters started lecturing scientists on how it was possible that one day scientists might make the discoveries that they had already made, and when these discoveries had, presumably via the medium of popular science articles, been spoon-fed to the creationists.
---
Creationism is, as it were, a parasitic organism. It cannot discover facts for itself; it lacks the necessary organs. Instead, it must leech off evolutionists, who do all the actual work, feeding on the facts and then using its organs of misinterpretation, stupidity, and mendacity to turn them into the putrid slime it finds digestible.
The analogy breaks down on one point: there is, so far as I know, no parasitic organism so stupid as to aspire to kill its host.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 41 of 164 (654526)
03-02-2012 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by idscience
03-02-2012 12:51 AM


Re: No he cannot define Macroevolution
The thread was not a request for a discussion.
Well, we do tend to discuss things round here. It's a forum. You see at the top of the page where it says:
Understanding through Discussion
That would be what we call a "clue".
It is very simple....
Does anyone, any where on here have any empirical evidence of anything other than variation within a species? I would like to know?
When someone has an actual answer to my question, I will respond.
See my first post on this thread.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 50 of 164 (654549)
03-02-2012 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by idscience
03-02-2012 2:13 AM


Re: Evidence to Settle the Debate
Ok, I read the paper. I am not sure how it wipes out design completely.
The title you gave to this thread was not: "How do you wipe out design completely"?
If you're interested, you do that by pointing out that creationists are a bunch of gormless idiots without a shred of evidence for their futile beliefs, and then you mock them. But this is by-the-by, since it is not the subject under discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by idscience, posted 03-02-2012 2:13 AM idscience has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 147 of 164 (654932)
03-05-2012 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by idscience
03-05-2012 4:38 PM


I see nothing here, no evidence outside variation to suggest evolution can invent new organs, limbs, or body plans.
See my first post on this thread.
The cornerstone, and backbone of this belief, is TIME.
No, it's evidence. Such as I referred you to in the first post on this thread.
I believe the science of mapping ancestrial descent is in the mess it is because the theory is flawed.
Actually the reason for the things you've made up in your head is that you are a fantasist unrestrained by such considerations as facts.
I however, don't get all the way there when adding in common design. Design theory is more compelling to me given the barriers mutation and change have come up against over 150 years to trying to engineer changes in labs.
Perhaps you could tell us more about these imaginary barriers, I could do with a laugh.

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