Summations Only

Alias writes: First off, there is no reason to think a "big god" is any more able to help than a "small god".

Sorry for the terminology. I didn't mean big as in "physically larger", I meant it in a more general "more powerful" sense. I just took the big/small terminology from the focus of the thread.
But, yes... there certainly is a reason to think that "a more powerful god" is better equipped to help... He would be more powerful, it would be easier for Him.

IT could ALSO be that "god" chooses a different teaching style depending on the situation (teach by letting us experience or by interfering).

Right. This is the point.

God may not be loving enough or powerful enough to help us.
So... why not believe in a God who is "all-loving" and "all-powerful"? Well... other than the fact that such a God obviously doesn't exist, because of all the evil around us, anyway.

Therefore, logically-consistent people are forced to believe in a God that is either restricted in power, or doesn't care enough to help us as much as He could.

ALSO the authority of right/wrong is up to "god" not people.

Not according to the Bible...
And not according to any system of morality that's worth anything.
If God chooses to act in ways that affect intelligent people, then it damn-well is the authority of those intelligent people who are affected to say whether or not what God has done is right or wrong.

Any other way around it is just silly.

Let's say I create an ant farm. I gather some ants and make sure they breed... if it wasn't for me the ant farm would not exist at all.
Now, then I decide to kill some ants, but not others and decide to say this is "good for the ants."
Does that make any sense?
Of course not... the one doing the actions doesn't get to judge their own results.
it's the ones who are affected who get to judge if what happened was good or bad. (And we will assume that the ants do not want to die according to my whims).

Why would it be different for God? There's nothing special about God. Even if He is more powerful then us. Even if He did create the universe. Even if He did create mankind... that doesn't give Him any rights to do whatever-the-hell-he-wants and call it "good." I'll punch Him in the nose for being a petulant child for that.

It is like being a child expecting things from parents. Sometimes we deserve what we expect and sometimes we don't. And in good parenting this can be extremely loving.

No, it's not like this at all. Parents are very restricted in regards to their "power". Therefore, it's logically consistent for a non-all-powerful parent to make mistakes, and only help out as best they can.

Unless you're saying God is only as powerful as a human? Then it makes sense... Puny God, though.
Do you believe in such a powerless ("small") God?

However, if we could see the BIG picture better (concluding there is a bigger picture and we are fish in a fish tank) it would all make much more sense (I would hope) and we would understand how it is loving (I would hope).

This is very possible.
But without any ideas to point towards the empty hopefulness... there's no reason to blindly have faith in a God that obviously doesn't exist.
Unless it simply makes you feel better. That's a pretty good reason.
And, of course, it's just as possible that God's totally evil and screwing with us as much as He can. After all, if we're in the fish tank, we can't know.
Therefore... this line of reasoning doesn't lead us anywhere.

In my view, Nature does not teach moral. IMO, In nature phenomena occurs that is it. When you introduce a brain into nature the brain interprets, depending on its ability, the information/phenomena and sums it up to thought/a conclusion.

Sorry, I think you lost me.
Do you think that brains are not a part of nature? What part of a brain is "super-natural"?

Brains are capable of teaching us morals.
Brains are a part of nature.
Therefore, nature is capable of teaching us morals.

In order to get beyond this... you're going to have to show me how a brain is not-natural.

When we discuss "god" we are saying that it created nature and has overall authority of moral which man has tried to get it right without that authority and is terrible in my view at getting it right. You get stuff like racism/hitler/the crusaders, etc.

Have you ever asked what stopped the racism/hitler/crusades and such?
Wasn't it more natural brains from more natural people?

Seems to me that you're picking the bad stuff and calling it "from man" but ignoring the good stuff that is just as much from man.

yenmor writes: Wow, I've been too busy with work to check this thread out that I started. I came in just now and it says it will close soon because the 300 posts limit has been reached.

Oh, don't worry about that.
There used to be a problem with the software on this board that large threads would become corrupt.
The problem is now fixed, but generally it's been discovered that shorter-threads are better focused anyway. So the concept of limiting threads usually continues; as a default they're set to 300 messages. (Then, after 300, you're allowed one final "summation" post).

Even if the message limit is reached, though...there's nothing stopping you from simply starting up another thread, or posting to a similarly-themed one.

You haven't read the articles have you? Please give your perspective on the first four paragraphs of page 277 from Melius' article.

Hello Stile,

Yes I do think if there is a god that that god is all powerful all loving and all knowing. I don't agree that evil existing in the world is a good enough reason to believe god does not exist. In fact, evil existing in the world is a reason to believe god exists. Also there are several forms of love, love is not always kind, nor protective, nor giving, nor sexual, etc... Love is different depending on the circumstances. Sometimes love can be extremely cruel at first. A great example is having your parents move you out of their home at the age of 19 because they want you to grow up, even if you don't have a job. What results usually is a adult that takes care of himself. It was loving to move the child out so they can learn about the real world at a young age and develop into a responsible person that takes care of them self, etc. This is the type of love I would expect from a god and if I was deserving or others were deserving more. I think it is very important for people to realize that if there is a god out there that attacking that god mentally or otherwise is wrong and it is simply because it is god. In m view god does not have to answer to humanity. Humanity has to answer to god. I do hear what you're saying about god harming intelligent people just because they did something wrong in gods eyes, etc... However I disagree with that thought because I owe it to god for existence and granting me freedom. Thus this is why it is important to love god in order for god to love you. This type of relationship should be worthy in gods eyes but it certainly should command respect. The type of respect that a mentor has on a child, where the child listens to that mentor learning everything that that mentor has to teach. Also it is according to the bible that god is the authority hence the 10 commandments and jesus christ. If people disrespect that god after that god has granted them existence and freedom than they do not deserve gods protection, respect or love. If god grants it that is great but it is not necessary in my view. So moving back to that ant farm... If you decided to blot out a society of ants because they were raping, murdering, and doing all sorts of evil acts it would not bother me. I am not a socialist and I don't feel society needs to please everybody. Society in my view only needs to please the respectful and responsible. Your example of a reason to kill ants would not be a just god and I have not seen that in the Bible. Don't take this like i'm a christian, it just seems as though you're arguing with me as if I am a christian. I consider myself an agnostic theist. I do think some of the books in the bible are good books to read and others are just planted books. I do believe there is something special about god and that is, nothing would exist without it. This commands respect and submission. Again I completely disagree with you. God is like a parent and we are like children to god. God is trying to get a result out of us, and in my view it is a free individual that loves god but not under pressure of god to love god. Much like a parent who wants their child to love them even though they have rules. Honestly I doubt god is evil. In my view god is all knowing, he has nothing to fear, nothing to worry about, and no need to experiment. Again I disagree. When we discuss nature teaching moral we are portraying the laws teaching, and this does not happen. We are not talking about biological human beings as nature. Yes, we are natural human beings but we are completely blind to nature. We know little to nothing about nature. We theorize, hypothesize and speculate about it. Nature has a lot more to offer big and small than we can EVER understand. Feel free to research quantum particles and see how lost scientists are with it. This is really only a starting point though so don't take it like that is the only thing we don't understand. This is actually a huge piece though. What stopped evil actions from happening are good people. The point is, evil strives when we decide morality. I am not saying that there is no good in people or in our decisions when deciding morality but humanity is terrible to humanity, and everything else. Very little good comes out of humanity.

Seems to me like you're blind...

Thanks
Alias :-)

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Cheers. While you're at it, also read Parker 2011 on amine synthesis in a modified Miller experiment.

Hey Yakuzi,

I read the "Scientists finish a 53-year-old classic experiment on the origins of life" article that you refed. I have no problems with this article and all they concluded was that amino acids could have been created if the exact conditions were present. However, they also concluded that it was unlikely that those conditions existed during early earth. This article is not helpful to your argument. Another point, this article is evidence that the correct conditions had to be setup hence something had to setup the correct conditions for amino acids to assimilate. I tried finding your other refs but your refs are terrible. Please post article names, etc...

Thanks
Alias :-)

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Alias writes: Yes I do think if there is a god that god is all powerful and all knowing. I don't agree that evil existing in the world is a good enough reason to believe god does not exist.

Evil existing just means that an all-powerful and all-loving God doesn't exist.

It's rather simple:
Either God isn't powerful enough to stop the evil, or He doesn't love us enough to stop it.

A great example is having your parents move you out of their home at the age of 19 because they want you to grow up, even if you don't have a job.

This is not an example about evil.
Teaching your kid how to grow up isn't evil.
Raping a child is evil.

Do you have an example of loving parents that rape their child? This is what God does, if He is all-powerful and all-loving. Because there are children in this existence that get raped and God created this existence.
Is God not powerful enough to stop child rape?
Does God not love children enough to stop them from getting raped?
What sort of lesson is God teaching "out of love" that involves the rape of a child?

...I owe it to god for existence and granting me freedom. Thus this is why it is important to love god in order for god to love you. This type of relationship should be worthy in gods eyes but it certainly should command respect.

Respect doesn't come from creation.
Parents do not deserve respect from their children because they created them. They only deserve respect from their children if they take care of them.
A parent who does not take care of their child does not deserve any respect at all.
If God is all-powerful and simply refuses to take care of His children and lets them get raped... that means God doesn't deserve any respect at all. This just means God is evil, not loving.

The type of respect that a mentor has on a child, where the child listens to that mentor learning everything that that mentor has to teach.

The mentor is only respected if he is a good mentor.
If the mentor rapes the child... then the mentor is not a good mentor, and does not deserve to be respected.

I'm sorry of all the talk about children being raped. It's just that it does happen in the world, and we are doing the world a very big disservice if we ignore it. Especially when discussing deities and their responsibilities when creating this world. Don't you think that is important?

Seems to me like you're blind...

Very much so.
Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

Stile writes: Evil existing just means that an all-powerful and all-loving God doesn't exist.

This is a mere assertion. I honestly think it depends on the system of beliefs a person has in their mind. For example biblical thought is that this existence is a temporary existence and evil will exist up until judgement by the all knowing all powerful all loving creator god. Yes this is not scientific but neither is atheism. Depends on belief structure. The thought that god was involved or not involved is unknown. Most of the time people choose atheism because they don't believe in the idea of an after life however I do believe in the thought of an afterlife.

Stile writes: It's rather simple: Either God isn't powerful enough to stop the evil, or He doesn't love us enough to stop it.

Ref above. ALSO: OR god has a different understanding of love that is above our understanding of love, and that goes along with being all knowing. It is aware of things to come that we can only imagine because we don't even know if it actually exists. We're so lost in this existence we can't even perceive it to be temporary in that something is coming after this life that god is preparing for those he deems righteous. We perceive that the after life is the imagination but in point it may not be just the imagination. In this existence children getting rapped is terrible (among many other things like what is going on in Syria), but when you look at it from the vantage that this whole existence is a test and we will all be looking back on this from eternity having lived different lives and experienced different evils that we will have learned from that and why not to be evil. Even more than how we perceive evil in this life it will be heightened and even more supportive of gods ways and how it teaches. These are things we need to learn for eternal existence with god as righteous individuals. Programming us as robots is clearly not what god has in mind. And this does not mean god is limited necessarily. It just means that is the way he chooses to create.

It is not merely a fantasy to believe in such things because it may be reality. This is just as logical as presuming atheism. Atheism to is comforting in so many ways to those that wish to think that way.

Stile writes: This is not an example about evil. Teaching your kid how to grow up isn't evil. Raping a child is evil. Do you have an example of loving parents that rape their child? This is what God does, if He is all-powerful and all-loving. Because there are children in this existence that get raped and God created this existence. Is God not powerful enough to stop child rape? Does God not love children enough to stop them from getting raped? What sort of lesson is God teaching "out of love" that involves the rape of a child?

Ref above. FYI: I was giving an example of how loving parents can show their love in several ways and so can god show its love in several ways. It was not meant as an example of evil. It was an example of how there are different forms of love. Also god should not be held responsible for the things done by humanity. It's not logical. God gave humanity free agency clearly, this was a loving gift. Thus rather humanity should be held responsible for the things done by humanity and be judged by the all powerful all knowing all loving creator god. This is more logical.

Stile writes: Respect doesn't come from creation. Parents do not deserve respect from their children because they created them. They only deserve respect from their children if they take care of them. A parent who does not take care of their child does not deserve any respect at all. If God is all-powerful and simply refuses to take care of His children and lets them get raped... that means God doesn't deserve any respect at all. This just means God is evil, not loving.

God has not deserted humanity. God gave humanity free agency and those that have sinned will be judged when the time has come. If you can't accept this side of my argument that is your problem (merely just difference of opinion) Ref above for more info. Respect should be given to god (does not matter if you don't like its ways). In a case where god has deserted humanity I would agree with you (in billions of years when nothing has changed except that which humanity has created then we can revisit this conversation).

Stile writes: The mentor is only respected if he is a good mentor. If the mentor rapes the child... then the mentor is not a good mentor, and does not deserve to be respected.

Ref above. All in time. God can't be held responsible for humanity's sins. It is not logical. Let the sinner be held responsible for their sins by god and judged for them. This is logical.

Stile writes: I'm sorry of all the talk about children being raped. It's just that it does happen in the world, and we are doing the world a very big disservice if we ignore it. Especially when discussing deities and their responsibilities when creating this world. Don't you think that is important?

Absolutely. Ref above to understand my belief system. To be honest some of these things I am not 100% sure about hence my belief agnostic theism. I am technically unsure exactly how things will play out. What I say above is a general model I think is accurate with regards to sins/spiritual matters. I don't believe in all scripture, just scripture that is right in my eyes. It is a book written by man, and organized by man. I pref free thought over organized religion. I do think that god is real and has communicated to humanity morality but you have to seek in order to find. :-).

FYI: This entire post is an example of how evil can exist even though a all powerful all knowing all loving god may exist.... It is just a timing thing and depending on where we are at in that timeline... So further out in time evil will eventually not exist, we just have not reached our destination. I definitely find it harder to believe, and more of a fantasy to believe, that there is no god and there is no judgement and further that all of existence is random and pointless. Nothing producing life, I think not. It is not merely emotions it is plenty of logic. Atheism is a huge fantasy and fits the emotional needs of atheists because they like to do what they want to do vs submit themselves to the thought of judgement. They almost feel relieved when they read theories of evolution but they fail to realize evolution does not mean god does not exist as mentioned above.

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Stile writes: Evil existing just means that an all-powerful and all-loving God doesn't exist. Alias writes: This is a mere assertion.

No it's not. Here, I'll show you again:

Alias writes: For example biblical thought is that this existence is a temporary existence and evil will exist up until judgement by the all knowing all powerful loving creator god.

If this is true... either God is not powerful enough to prevent evil in the temporary existence, or God doesn't love us enough to prevent evil in the temporary existence.
Therefore, since evil exists in the temporary existence... an all-powerful and all-loving God does not exist.

It's not very difficult.
Evil exists - children are raped in this world.
An all-powerful God would have the power to prevent children from being raped.
An all-loving God would want to prevent the rape of innocent children.
Therefore, an all-powerful, all-loving God does not exist.

It's a rather simple concept.

It was an example of how there are different forms of love.

I know. That's what was wrong with it. We're not talking about different forms of love. We're talking about evil. Your example was irrelevant to what we're discussing... unless you're trying to say that one of God's "forms of love" is allowing the rape of innocent children. But that doesn't make any sense at all.

Also god should not be held responsible for the things done by humanity. It's not logical.

I agree.
I'm not calling God responsible, I'm calling Him evil.

Let's say you're walking down the road and a rapist sees a child and is about to rape the child.
You understand that the rapist is going to rape the child, and that this will hurt the child in ways that even time cannot undo.
Let's say that all you have to do is think "I wish that child would not get raped..." and the rapist would not rape the child.
But... you refuse to think that, and the child gets raped.

You are not "responsible" but you certainly are evil as you could have easily prevented that child from being raped.

If God is all-powerful, He is capable of stopping children from being raped just from wishing it to be so, right?
If God is all-loving, He would not want innocent children to be raped, right?
But... we live in a world where evil exists and innocent children most certainly are raped.
Therefore... an all-powerful, all-loving God does not exist.

The steps are very simple.

God has not deserted humanity.

If God has the power of preventing the rape of an innocent child merely by wishing it to be so... yet He doesn't... then God does not deserve respect. Because He's evil.

To be honest some of these things I am not 100% sure about hence my belief agnostic theism.

Take your time.
This is a discussion board. Feel free to continue discussing whatever you like as long as you like. I'm not offended or frustrated in any way.

I don't believe in all scripture, just scripture that is right in my eyes.

I'm not very well versed with scripture either. I'm just explaining that an all-powerful, all-loving God is logically impossible when evil such as the rape of innocent children exists. This argument doesn't say I don't believe in God, the argument doesn't stand in the way of God creating mankind. It's only showing that an all-powerful, all-loving God can't possibly exist given the sorts of evil we find here on earth.

I do think that god is real and has communicated to humanity morality but you have to seek in order to find. :-)

The above statement is still perfectly valid for a God that is not all-powerful.
God can even still be all-loving... just not both.
That may be a blow to your "my-Dad-is-bigger-than-your-Dad" idea of an all-powerful, all-loving God... but reality doesn't cater to our egos.

So further out in time evil will eventually not exist, we just have not reached our destination.

Quite possible, I agree.
But... then God is not "all-powerful" as He would be restricted by time.
If God is not powerful enough to prevent all evil at all times... then God is not all-powerful, is He?

Perhaps I have just been confused by the words you chose to use?

It is one thing to say "God is the most powerful being in existence."
It is another thing entirely to say "God is all-powerful."
The two are not necessarily the same thing.

If all you meant to say was "God is the most powerful being in existence..." then I agree that my argument about evil's existence preventing an all-powerful, all-loving God's existence does not apply. It's still a true argument, though. We know a few things:

Innocent children get raped. This is a fact.
Therefore... either God is not powerful enough to stop it, or He doesn't love innocent children enough to stop it.

Because, if God was powerful enough to stop it, and he wanted to stop it... then it would never have happened... He would have stopped it.
Obviously, something is preventing God from stopping the rape of innocent children.

Maybe God values the "freedom of personal choice" of a rapist over His love for innocent children's freedom of personal choice? -This would be an evil God
Maybe God cannot prevent the "personal choice" of some people? -This would be a not-all-powerful God

Stile writes: If this is true... either God is not powerful enough to prevent evil in the temporary existence, or God doesn't love us enough to prevent evil in the temporary existence. Therefore, since evil exists in the temporary existence... an all-powerful and all-loving God does not exist. It's not very difficult. Evil exists - children are raped in this world. An all-powerful God would have the power to prevent children from being raped. An all-loving God would want to prevent the rape of innocent children. Therefore, an all-powerful, all-loving God does not exist. It's a rather simple concept.

False. The only conclusion is not simply if evil exists than a all powerful all knowing all loving god does not exist. Again this is a mere assertion. You're blind. Just because god does things differently than you and thinks differently than you does not mean it does not exist. It is all about timing. FYI: I get the ideology you are claiming and it does make sense but it is merely a model for speculated thought. There are other speculated thoughts. For example: If god interfered with evil it would be stopping/interfering with free agency. Thus the cost of free agency is that god does not interfere with or stop evil until judgement day (freedom is a gift of love, it wanted you to live free and not under oppression or as a robot). Remember god didn't create robots it created FREE living beings and noted that in the end they will be judged for their acts.

Stile writes: I know. That's what was wrong with it. We're not talking about different forms of love. We're talking about evil. Your example was irrelevant to what we're discussing... unless you're trying to say that one of God's "forms of love" is allowing the rape of innocent children. But that doesn't make any sense at all.

False it was relevant. It was an explanation that what appears evil is actually loving at times we just can't perceive it within our understanding of existence (hence the different forms of love). An example is children getting raped. This happens due to free agency but free agency was a gift of love. Hence why god does not interfere when children get raped. God is aware that in the end of this temporary existence all evil will be judged and blotted out by it. Justification/justice is coming. So it is not in any rush to interfere. Judgement is eternal. In that day all of the blind people that didn't have faith without seeing first will see how what a all loving all knowing all powerful god we have in reality. So at this time, all of those secular folk are just blind and ignorant perhaps even a bit arrogant.

Stile writes: You are not "responsible" but you certainly are evil as you could have easily prevented that child from being raped.

Remember the gift of free agency.... Hence why god does not interfere. God is saving its judgement until judgement day.

Stile writes: If God has the power of preventing the rape of an innocent child merely by wishing it to be so... yet He doesn't... then God does not deserve respect. Because He's evil.

Remember the gift of free agency.... Hence why god does not interfere. God is saving its judgement until judgement day.

Stile writes: Take your time. This is a discussion board. Feel free to continue discussing whatever you like as long as you like. I'm not offended or frustrated in any way.

Not a problem. I enjoy these conversations.

Stile writes: I'm not very well versed with scripture either. I'm just explaining that an all-powerful, all-loving God is logically impossible when evil such as the rape of innocent children exists. This argument doesn't say I don't believe in God, the argument doesn't stand in the way of God creating mankind. It's only showing that an all-powerful, all-loving God can't possibly exist given the sorts of evil we find here on earth.

I am not sure we should continue this conversation if you are not versed in biblical thought. You should go read up. It may help you. FYI: Remember the gift of free agency.... Hence why god does not interfere. God is saving its judgement until judgement day.

Stile writes: The above statement is still perfectly valid for a God that is not all-powerful. God can even still be all-loving... just not both. That may be a blow to your "my-Dad-is-bigger-than-your-Dad" idea of an all-powerful, all-loving God... but reality doesn't cater to our egos.

No ego. This is mere communication. Hence why I communicated earlier how I am not 100% sure how exactly things will play out. I was not explaining that I was not versed in the bible, I was explaining that I don't believe in all of the scripture in the bible and if you read that prev post you will figure out why.... Please though, don't forget the gift of free agency.... Hence why god does not interfere. God is saving its judgement until judgement day. I know this does not fit into your secular thought but both thoughts are valid thoughts. Both thoughts are possibly true. I am just sticking to the belief that there is a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god. There is not enough reason or logic avail otherwise in order for me to change my mind.

Stile writes: Quite possible, I agree. But... then God is not "all-powerful" as He would be restricted by time. If God is not powerful enough to prevent all evil at all times... then God is not all-powerful, is He?

The idea is that god has a plan laid out. God chooses not to interfere with the evil of humanity until god is ready to interfere with it as per its plan which is loving in order to give humanity a fair shot. Again god gave humanity free agency. This is why god does not interfere yet.

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I cannot comprehend the lengths some people are willing to go to justify the actions or lack of of their resident deity. I have on numerous occasions heard how destroying the Canaanites or Amalechians was moral and justified course of action.

The endless tirades of God not wanting to interfere with free will and how that is such a valuable thing that it overrides human suffering are just nauseating. Yahweh had no problem meddling with the free will of the Pharaoh but apparently things have changed...

This sums things nicely up IMHO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zdmqV2iDN8

Alias writes: The only conclusion is not simply if evil exists than a all powerful all knowing loving god does not exist. Again this is a mere assertion.

It's not an assertion. It's a logical incompatibility:

Premise 1 - An all loving God would want to prevent evil
Premise 2 - An all powerful God would be capable of preventing evil
Conclusion - If an all loving, all powerful God exists, then there would be no evil.

Fact of our life: Innocent children are raped. Therefore evil exists. Therefore an all loving, all powerful God does not exist.

This is not an assertion, it is what's called "logical thinking."

Thus the cost of free agency is that god does not interfere with/ or stop evil until judgement day (freedom is a gift of love, it wanted you to live free and not under oppression or as a robot).

This very well may be true.
But then it means one of two things:
1) God is not powerful enough to interfere with free agency - Therefore God is not all powerful.
2) God does not love innocent children enough to prevent the free agency of a rapist - Therefore God is not all loving.

Either way, we have a God who is not all powerful, or not all loving.
Therefore, again, you have shown to us all that an all loving and all powerful God cannot exist.

An example is children getting raped. This happens due to free agency but free agency was a gift of love. Hence why god does not interfere when children get raped.

Free agency cannot be a gift of love if it results in the rape of an innocent child.

I find it incredibly strange that I need to explain that to someone. Perhaps you do not fully understand how wonderful love is? Or maybe you don't really understand how evil rape is?
There is no way to make anything the "results in rape" to be "a gift of love."
If you think that's possible, then you simply do not understand what love is and what rape is. I will try to make it clear again here:

Go back to the example I provided.

There is a rapist about to rape a child.
You understand that this rapist is going to rape the child, and he is going to hurt the child in ways that no amount of time can heal.
The rapist is going to take away the FREE living agency of the child, for the rest of it's life.
You have the power to simply wish that the rapist does not rape the child. This will prevent the rape, and will only take away the FREE living agency of the rapist for about an hour or so.

What do you do?

Do you wish the rapist would stop and take away the FREE living agency of the rapist for about an hour?
Or do you refuse to wish the rapist will stop, and allow the rapist to take away the FREE living agency of the innocent child for the rest of their life?

You decide not to wish the rapist to stop.

...and you call this an "all-loving" gift for the child?
I think you have some explaining to do...

Preventing the rape doesn't create robots. In fact, allowing the rape creates more of a robot... the free agency of the child is removed for the rest of their life. If God stops the rapist, it only removes the free agency of the rapist for about an hour or so. If God (or you) actually believed that free agency is important... you would be on the side of preventing the rapist. Not allowing it. That's just silly. And pretty evil, too.

If you are unable to figure out how allowing the rape of an innocent child is "not an act of love"... I will just hope that you are never left to be responsible of children of any kind, ever. If you become a parent, or if you are a parent... and you think that letting your child get raped will be "an act of love" to preserve your child's free agency... I will personally make sure that the police find your residence and place you behind bars.

So at this time, all of those secular folk are just blind and ignorant perhaps even a bit arrogant.

The secular folk?
It's not the secular folk who are defending the choice of a rapist to rape innocent children and ruin the rest of their lives and calling it an act of God's love.
I usually say this as a joke, but perhaps you need it to be said seriously: Will somebody think of the children??!!

Stile writes: If God has the power of preventing the rape of an innocent child merely by wishing it to be so... yet He doesn't... then God does not deserve respect. Because He's evil. Alias writes: Remember the gift of free agency.... Hence why god does not interfere. God is saving its judgement until judgement day.

This "gift of free agency" may very well be real.
But if it is real... it means that God is not all loving.

If God is okay with allowing the rapist to remove the child's "gift of free agency", but refuses to simply remove the rapist's "gift of free agency" Himself... then God is not all loving. Obviously God respect the rapist's free agency over that of an innocent child. That's not love. That's evil.

And again, even the "gift of FREE living agency" only shows us that God cannot exist as all loving and all powerful.

Stile writes: It's not an assertion. It's a logical incompatibility: Premise 1 - An all loving God would want to prevent evil Premise 2 - An all powerful God would be capable of preventing evil

True. ALSO don't forget ALL KNOWING creator god.

Stile writes: Fact of our life: Innocent children are raped. Therefore evil exists. Therefore an all loving, all powerful God does not exist. This is not an assertion, it is what's called "logical thinking."

This is a mere assertion because there is no evidence that this all powerful all knowing all loving creator god does not exist. Children getting raped is a fact but it does not scream an all powerful all knowing all loving creator god does not exist. Logical thinking can lead people in different directions depending on the data set. Clearly you have lost some data (all knowing, creator god). In this case free agency explains why god chooses (all knowing portion) not to interfere, it would make god a hypocrite (and other reasons I am unaware of probably). What would be the point of a plan to judge humanity (a ultimate plan to blot out evil completely once and for all) after giving humanity free agency so that they can figure out themselves if god just stopped humanity from being themselves (yeah that would be pointless)? In my full opinion god is going to decide to blot out a large part of humanity, those that do evil under free agency. Thus this is why we have time and why it does not interfere (as far as I presume, again I don't know it all).

Stile writes: This very well may be true. But then it means one of two things: 1) God is not powerful enough to interfere with free agency - Therefore God is not all powerful. 2) God does not love innocent children enough to prevent the free agency of a rapist - Therefore God is not all loving. Either way, we have a God who is not all powerful, or not all loving. Therefore, again, you have shown to us all that an all loving and all powerful God cannot exist.

You forgot the ALL KNOWING (and creator god) clause. I would conclude that god's thoughts and ways are higher than our ways and thoughts (I would hope). The only conclusion is not simply a all knowing all powerful all loving creator god does not exist (don't forget all knowing/creator god portions).

Stile writes: Free agency cannot be a gift of love if it results in the rape of an innocent child.

Yes it is a huge gift of love to be able to do what one feels but also to not be a robot. In my mind I think of a god that is giving me the chance to do what is right without it controlling me. It is about the heart of humanity not the heart of god (we are being tested). IT is a test (to reward with eternity). Those that choose to do evil will probably be blotted out from existence along with all evil (all powerful all knowing all loving creator god).

Stile writes: I find it incredibly strange that I need to explain that to someone. Perhaps you do not fully understand how wonderful love is? Or maybe you don't really understand how evil rape is? There is no way to make anything the "results in rape" to be "a gift of love." If you think that's possible, then you simply do not understand what love is and what rape is.

Please don't forget the "all knowing god". Hence all powerful all knowing and all loving creator god. Do not make this about me it is about you failing to see the BIG picture. Children getting rapped will have justice served (in time because again god is not a hypocrite and we have free agency plus god is all knowing). ALSO let me remind you how small our existence is in the scheme of eternity. As I've pointed out in previous post this is a temporary existence a small existence to test humanity and it comes with certain costs. Whether or not you can accept that point as a reason for children getting raped, people getting shot in the face, children getting shot in the face which I just heard recently on the news, and so on then that is your personal problem. In my mind I assign meaning and reason to those things because they are terrible and that is they will have justice served by god in the end and get to be rewarded with eternal life by that god who is all knowing all powerful all loving creator god. Those that have done evil will be completely blotted out from existence (if I understand correctly but if not they will be in torment for a very very long time) and justice will be served. Another point if god still does not blot out evil in my full opinion god is trying to love those that have done evil by giving them yet another chance.... I don't know that this will take place but probably will since god is all knowing all loving all powerful creator god.

Stile writes: ...and you call this an "all-loving" gift for the child? I think you have some explaining to do...

No I don't have any explaining to do, god will show you hence all knowing all powerful all loving creator god. You fail to see the point. We can't understand its ways or its thinking completely. I understand where you are coming from, I am just not going to jump to the assumption that that all powerful all knowing all loving creator god does not exist merely because of evil existing.

Stile writes: Preventing the rape doesn't create robots. In fact, allowing the rape creates more of a robot... the free agency of the child is removed for the rest of their life. If God stops the rapist, it only removes the free agency of the rapist for about an hour or so. If God (or you) actually believed that free agency is important... you would be on the side of preventing the rapist. Not allowing it. That's just silly. And pretty evil, too.

Preventing the rape does create robots. I would love to see what you would not do once you have seen god. Its like criminals don't commit crimes in front of police because they would get caught. Same deal, except god in my mind is always aware of what you do, there is no hiding it so eventually you will be punished when the time has come. Your point is moot. Immediate gratification is blind most of the time. ALSO the absence of the all powerful all knowing all loving creator god is a very affective test, it certainly gives people the feeling of true freedom. This is the type of environment humanity should be tested under in order for humanity to show its true colors and be able to be judged for them. Judgement should not come before action.

Stile writes: If you are unable to figure out how allowing the rape of an innocent child is "not an act of love"... I will just hope that you are never left to be responsible of children of any kind, ever. If you become a parent, or if you are a parent... and you think that letting your child get raped will be "an act of love" to preserve your child's free agency... I will personally make sure that the police find your residence and place you behind bars.

False. You are failing to see the big picture once again (hence all knowing god). This is not about me once again this is about god and its thoughts. When I react to stop a rapist it would show that I am a good person to god.

Stile writes: The secular folk? It's not the secular folk who are defending the choice of a rapist to rape innocent children and ruin the rest of their lives and calling it an act of God's love. I usually say this as a joke, but perhaps you need it to be said seriously: Will somebody think of the children??!!

I called free agency a act of gods love, clearly you are blind. However I would conclude that it is secular folk that rape children. I don't believe for a minute that people who fear god would do such a thing. Anyone that does such a thing and claiming to be a theist is not really a theist. Your argument that disrespects god fearing people is failing. As for your joke, it shows your actual thoughts. Typically jokes show the comedians comical sense. Would you please think of the children (seriously)? Why would you joke about such a thing!

Stile writes: This "gift of free agency" may very well be real. But if it is real... it means that God is not all loving. If God is okay with allowing the rapist to remove the child's "gift of free agency", but refuses to simply remove the rapist's "gift of free agency" Himself... then God is not all loving. Obviously God respect the rapist's free agency over that of an innocent child. That's not love. That's evil. And again, even the "gift of FREE living agency" only shows us that God cannot exist as all loving and all powerful.

No it is all loving. God is trying to extend its all loving personality even to the rapist ( I would presume that before I would presume there is no all loving god lol) who may not be in the their normal right mind (that the all knowing part of god is aware of) and would not normally do such a thing. Please read my entire post for any other questions. FYI: You also need to remember that not all criminals that have committed crimes are evil they are a lot of times just not in their normal right mind and need to be lead down a better path. You know give them a CHANCE to do right. I would hope that your love would be forgiving and try to help these people out. True evil needs TIME (hence the time tidbit) for its face to be shown. IT is not shown in one act of criminal behavior. Remember criminal behavior is not the same thing as evil. Evil is broader and more penetrating than mere criminal behavior. Please do try to love all humanity as much as you can even those with bad behaviors so that we can expose true evil.

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saab93f writes: I cannot comprehend the lengths some people are willing to go to justify the actions or lack of of their resident deity. I have on numerous occasions heard how destroying the Canaanites or Amalechians was moral and justified course of action.

Probably was a good thing to do...

saab93f writes: The endless tirades of God not wanting to interfere with free will and how that is such a valuable thing that it overrides human suffering are just nauseating.

You fail to realize the big picture. First you have to realize atheism/theism is not a fact. Then you have to realize that you are choosing one over the other. The evidence that is out is usually being manipulated to suit the personality not the truth. The truth will be shown in time. You clearly choose to be atheist or anti biblical and I choose to be theist and not so anti biblical. ALSO I do think it is important to realize human suffering could be a mere short blip of existence if you were a all knowing god. Especially if you were that all knowing god that granted freedom to those people to see what they would do with it, and give them time to show themselves hence the love tidbit before completely or partially blotting them out to remove evil. Evil existing and human suffering is a fact BUT it is not absolute that they infer god does not exist. The only thing you can really conclude is that human suffering happens and evil does exist. Outside of that is a personal choice based on your personality.

saab93f writes: Yahweh had no problem meddling with the free will of the Pharaoh but apparently things have changed...

This type of writing I presume to be a lie and a manipulation by the church in order to control the people. I am not a fan of organized religion. I prefer free thought, you would never find me attending church and living based on the merits of a church. I read through scripture and pick out the thoughts/writings that I would conclude a all powerful all loving all knowing creator god to have influenced. This is logical when you realize humanity wrote the bible and organized the bible. I mean gosh the damned thing is in a book format!

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First off, if the God you are describing is real, I personally hope that I am one of those that is marked for oblivion instead of eternity with an evil deity such as you describe....now onto your points.

You seem to be accepting of the two premises that Stile has already laid out and that is:
1. If God is all powerful, he has the ability to stop the rapist from attacking the child.
2. If God is all loving, he would want to protect the child from the pain and suffering that would be inflicted by the actions the rapist is attempting to take.

However, you keep trying to state that:

Alias writes: You forgot the ALL KNOWING (and creator god) clause.

So, let's add in this problem as well. So, God is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving? Correct, this is your assertion? So in this case:

1. If God is all knowing, then he would be aware that he had created an individual who was going to rape this child. This means that it created this human being with foreknowledge of the pain and suffering that would be inflicted upon an innocent child.

2. If God is all powerful, then it would be able to create an individual with free actions, that does not have the desire to harm and ruin the life of an innocent child...all-powerful=can do anything, correct? Why does free will have to give us the option to remove someone else's free will? In other words, God would be capable, being all-powerful, of preventing this atrocity.

3. If God is All-loving, God would want to prevent the rape of an innocent child. Why, then would this all knowing God even create the individual who will then eventually rape the innocent child, simply so that this God can judge him after the act has occurred?

This means that your All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving God, knowingly created an individual who would destroy another of his creation's free agency through a despicable act. Then, this All-Powerful being chose to not interfere with a rapists free will, so that the rapist could ruin an innocent child's free will...simply so that he/she/it could judge the rapist after death? Why wouldn't an all-loving God simply create an individual who would not rape a child, since after all he/she/it already knows what its creations will choose to do, being all-knowing and all. The idea of an All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving God is not possible with the condition of the universe we live in. It is not logically consistent.

Now, if you want to believe your God is not logically consistent, then there is nothing I can say to you and I just hope that you don't actually believe that your God simply chooses not to protect innocent children from rape, so that he can protect a rapists free will, just to judge him/her after death even knowing full well what the individual he created will do....All-knowing actually makes the logical consistency of your God even worse!!!

Alias writes: The only conclusion is not simply an all knowing all powerful all loving creator god does not exist (don't forget all knowing/creator god portions).

You are correct, this is not the only conclusion. However, what you are forgetting is that while many conclusions are possible, the ONLY LOGICAL conclusion is that an All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving Creator God cannot exist with the current state of affairs.

Stile writes: Free agency cannot be a gift of love if it results in the rape of an innocent child. Alias writes: Yes it is a huge gift of love to be able to do what one feels but also to not be a robot.

I am actually sickened and appalled that this is how you choose to answer this...It is an act of love toward the rapist, but an act of evil to do nothing to protect the child. This is what you want your God to do? I am so glad your God refuses to remove the free agency from those who would do us (especially children) harm, even though he chose to create them knowing full well what they would do....real loving figure you have there.

Alias writes: As I've pointed out in previous post this is a temporary existence a small existence to test humanity and it comes with certain costs. Whether or not you can accept that point as a reason for children getting raped, people getting shot in the face, children getting shot in the face which I just heard recently on the news, and so on then that is your personal problem.

This line right here actually makes me slightly angry. It is not my personal problem that I cannot see love in the indifference to suffering of your feeble God. Rather, I look for ways in which humanity can protect the weakest among us, something your God would do if it actually loved people. Your All-Loving God wants innocent children to be tested by being raped or shot? Take the rape example, a child who suffers this fate is at risk of becoming that which destroyed his/her free will and innocence, so God's test can actually create another rapist to perpetuate the cycle. Terribly designed test, yet you glibly accept it as something that must happen. Stop attributing it to a deity and let's find a way to fix the problem ourselves....cause your God don't seem to love us enough to do anything.

Alias writes: I would love to see what you would not do once you have seen god

If it is your version of God that I see, I am definitely going to try and punch him/her/it in the face for allowing all the atrocities that have occurred, all while he/she/it claimed to be all-loving. I would tell him/her/it to look at the lives of those who actually helped people and explain how they are better than he/she/it is. Finally, I would beg never to spend eternity in a realm with a being as evil as the God you portray, I would rather be non-existent or suffer for eternity than dwell with a being who has the ability to stop a child from being raped, but instead considers rape a test for an innocent child.

Alias writes: However it is secular folk that rape children. I don't believe for a minute that people who fear god would do such a thing. Anyone that does such a thing and claiming to be a theist is not really a theist.

LIES! It is not ONLY secular folk who rape innocent children. I am pretty sure I should not even need to post examples of this, but if you would like, I will gladly take the three minutes it would take to find article after article about what denomination individuals are who have taken the innocence of a child...this is a blatant falsehood and you should retract it immediately. And the fact that you take their religion away does not apply to whether or not they are religious. If a rapist claims he/she is religious, then he/she is religious. You cannot just remove people from your group because it will make your group look better. The individual's claim is to be a theist, who are you to mess with their "Free Agency"?

Alias writes: No it is love. God is trying to extend its all loving personality even to the rapist ( I would presume before I would presume there is no all loving god) who may not be in the right mind (that the all knowing part of god is aware of) and would not normally do such a thing. Please read my entire post for any other questions. FYI: You also need to remember that not all criminals that have committed crimes are evil they are lot of times just not in the right mind and need to be lead down a better path. You know given a chance to do right. I would hope that your love would be forgiving and try to help these people out. True evil needs TIME (hence the time tidbit) for its face to be shown. IT is not shown in one act of criminal behavior. Remember criminal behavior is not the same thing as evil. Evil is broader and more penetrating than mere criminal behavior. Please do try to love all humanity as much as you can even those with bad behaviors so that we can expose true evil.

It is not love, and anyone who cannot see that is blind to what loving one another actually is. However, I am in agreement that many criminals can be rehabilitated and I believe our country needs to look for better methods, especially in mental health treatment, that can bring about the changes individuals need to live decent, loving lives. A criminal act is not the sign of evil, but should be looked at with honesty. However, creating someone who you know will create a criminal act and then allowing that criminal act to take place, destroying the life of a child, is an evil act. So, as you stated, "True Evil needs time". Well, your God has had plenty of time to perfect it, and he/she/it seems to be a pretty solid picture of what evil is at this time.