|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I could name a thing or two that I believe in without evidence. That isn't what stops me in my tracks from accepting the God that is marketed. One concept which stops many at EvC in their tracks from accepting GOD as real is the lack of evidence for a Creator and/or Jesus Christ:Alive Today. Suppose you see an ad for a car that goes from 0 to 60 in 3 seconds, sells for $1.30 and gets 900 miles to the gallon. But you know people who own them and they're always late for work and always blaming it on car trouble. You might be inclined to think that the ad is inaccurate.
Phat writes:
That's a convenient copout for situations where there is no evidence. Bigfoot hides from people because he wants them to accept him by faith.
... it appears to me that GOD by design requires Faith rather than Evidence.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: But the Bible says the fruits will be the evidence of the Holy Spirit. It seems that all the peaceful, pacifist, tolerant versions of Christianity died out. Where is the spirit today? He is one example of a religion, that had it survived, could very well be seen as evidence "of the spirit" This version of Christianity (which is fairly well related to the early Jewish Christians of James in Jerusalem).
quote: Manicheans were a remnant of the Jerusalem church of James. James has been blotted out for sure by Catholics and their hundreds of millions of "Protestant" imitators. Some leading scholars have noticed this overly obvious fact.
quote: Christianity today just isn't the same religion as the 1st century founders. Why is James blotted out anyway? It is simply because he held views on war, peace, meat, violence, nationalism, etc. that modern day Christians consider repugnant. If the Spirit was real, then that wouldn't be the case. You would at least have small pockets or a remnant (anyway). None exist from what I have seen. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
But the Bible says the fruits will be the evidence of the Holy Spirit. I cannot believe you see no evidence of "fruits of the Spirit" today. Studying ancient manuscripts is not getting anyone closer to God. God is the Living Word...not a bunch of dried up scrolls. I have seen the fruit of the Spirit show itself through many people. It has happened through me, but not often enough. I blame myself for not trusting God enough. Without faith it is impossible to please God...God is not impressed with evidence...either common sense 20th century sociology nor ancient scribblings. God is impressed with those who believe that He is and that through us He operates in this world. I know the counter-arguments...I hear them often around here. It seems that all the peaceful, pacifist, tolerant versions of Christianity died out. Where is the spirit today? He is one example of a religion, that had it survived, could very well be seen as evidence "of the spirit" My belief hinges on faith. You may someday get an opportunity to see the subjective evidence by watching power come through a person of faith. There are no ancient secrets that we need to learn. There is but the simple faith of a child..Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: My belief hinges on faith. You may someday get an opportunity to see the subjective evidence by watching power come through a person of faith. And just what does the power look like? Is it different than the power of a Totoro? What does the power accomplish? Does it clothe the naked in different clothes, feed the hungry with different food, comfort the sorrowful with some special comfort, heal the sick with so special medicine, teach the children some unique knowledge, protect the helpless with some magic shield....?My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nonsense. The "fruits of the spirit" show up as often - if not more often - in people who don't have faith in God. The "fruits of the spirit" have a lot more to do with humanism than with religious faith.
Without faith it is impossible to please God...
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
|
ringo writes: Nonsense. The "fruits of the spirit" show up as often - if not more often - in people who don't have faith in God. The "fruits of the spirit" have a lot more to do with humanism than with religious faith. That's fine but it is a matter of faith as to whether the "fruits of the spirit" or acts of unselfish love, is a result of the voice of God in our hearts or the result of a chance collection of mindless particles deciding that it's a good idea, regardless of our religious beliefs.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
GDR writes:
So why do the mindless particles often produce more fruits than the voice of God?
That's fine but it is a matter of faith as to whether the "fruits of the spirit" or acts of unselfish love, is a result of the voice of God in our hearts or the result of a chance collection of mindless particles deciding that it's a good idea, regardless of our religious beliefs.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Here is what I am getting at. Let me start with a simple google search on Augustine and just war (the whole concept was from his responce to Manicheans) Ill show the quotes in the cache but no links excapt the main onemanichean pcifist augustine strict just war - Google Search quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: Then from my main site.
quote: Augustine was defending wholesale genocide and it seems to be (something like) the mark of what makes modern Christianity. Rumsfeld sent Bush electronic postcards featuring Psalms quotes that centered around martial themes and "God". Hillary Clinton says Psalms is "comforting". Would the "Holy Spirit" agree with today's Christians that Psalms 151 was the God that incarnated Jesus? Mani, Marcion, and the Jewish Christians seemed to hold a differing view. Augustine flipped through the Old Testament to defend his view. Mani surely used the Book of Enoch, but otherwise seemed to reject the Old Testament (the precedent was already set by the Elkesaite Jewish-Christian community his parents were in and then he was born into). The Christians of the early centuries seemed perfectly willing to call the Old Testament God evil. Perhaps it was their proximity to Jewish Christian sects associated with James that gave them their inspiration and/or open mind toward the important issues, while modern Christians have nothing but the shackles of the Roman Catholics, Henry VIII, and Martin Luther as their inspiration. Can I invoke the holy spirit and say that the absence of the strictly peaceful Manicheans (and others) today is evidence that the Holy Spirit is simply absent from reality? (Manichean is a substantive adjective today denoting harsh black and white views , so peacefulness is just plain "dirty" in modern culture) Always was? I'm just asking.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
|
Can I invoke the holy spirit and say that the absence of the strictly peaceful Manicheans (and others) today is evidence that the Holy Spirit is simply absent from reality? You could use the same line of reasoning to say that the absence of the ancient Greeks spelled the end of democratic thinking in the world. No, this reasoning is bad. Perhaps you should not judge all Christians by watching what fundies do. Those folks are actually a minority of all Christians. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes:
Who is to say that is the case. It is a matter of faith no matter which one we choose. I believe that acts of unselfish love, or even more so sacrificial love, happen because we respond to that still small voice of God in our hearts. You choose to believe, (as I understand it), that they happen as a result of an evolutionary process that began with mindless particles that has eventually produced beings that are capable of making those choices. In either case those are our beliefs and a matter of faith. So why do the mindless particles often produce more fruits than the voice of God?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: In either case those are our beliefs and a matter of faith. You're trying to make an equivalence that doesn't exist. Please stop doing it - I know it means you feel better about your beliefs but it's an error. It's not a matter of faith that I think evolution is the force that created empathy, it's a matter of evidence.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
|
Tangle writes: You're trying to make an equivalence that doesn't exist. Please stop doing it - I know it means you feel better about your beliefs but it's an error. C'mon, do you really think that saying that makes me feel better about my beliefs. It has absolutely no impact on how I feel about my beliefs.
Tangle writes: It's not a matter of faith that I think evolution is the force that created empathy, it's a matter of evidence. What you call evidence is simply a record of how empathy has evolved in the world. Mind you, the evidence as far as I can see only applies when there is some form of link in the gene pool. Also, there is a big difference for feeling sorry for people in far flung cultures that we never encounter and actually sacrificially giving in order to help them. I'm fine with the idea that it has evolved over time, but whether it simply evolved from non intelligent root causes or an intelligent one is a matter of belief that can't be proven in either case. So, it is a matter of faith in what it is that we believe.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: C'mon, do you really think that saying that makes me feel better about my beliefs. It has absolutely no impact on how I feel about my beliefs. Ok, for whatever reason you're doing it, stop it! It's not true. People do not believe or have faith in biological processes.
What you call evidence is simply a record of how empathy has evolved in the world. Yeh, that is what we call evidence.
Mind you, the evidence as far as I can see only applies when there is some form of link in the gene pool. Not true.
Also, there is a big difference for feeling sorry for people in far flung cultures that we never encounter and actually sacrificially giving in order to help them. No there isn't - it's exactly the same thing.
I'm fine with the idea that it has evolved over time, Then what on earth are you objecting too?
but whether it simply evolved from non intelligent root causes or an intelligent one is a matter of belief that can't be proven in either case. So, it is a matter of faith in what it is that we believe. This is utterly irrelevant. If you accept that empathy evolved exactly like every other emotion, there's nothing left to argue about - we're an evolved species like everything else around us, after that you can believe what you like about it. But you can't say that your belief in god whispering in your ear is the equivalent of science's understanding of a biological process.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
The fact of evolution is not a matter of faith. We know that social conscience can be a result of evolutionary processes. There is no room for faith.
I believe that acts of unselfish love, or even more so sacrificial love, happen because we respond to that still small voice of God in our hearts. You choose to believe, (as I understand it), that they happen as a result of an evolutionary process that began with mindless particles that has eventually produced beings that are capable of making those choices. In either case those are our beliefs and a matter of faith.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes:
Sure. The question I'm debating is why that evolutionary process came into existence.
People do not believe or have faith in biological processes.GDR writes: Also, there is a big difference for feeling sorry for people in far flung cultures that we never encounter and actually sacrificially giving in order to help them.Tangle writes:
Wrong. There is a biog difference between reading about people suffering in Africa and feeling sorry for them as opposed to feeling sorry for them and opening up your wallet and doing something about it. No there isn't - it's exactly the same thing.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024