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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 796 of 818 (894161)
05-03-2022 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 794 by Percy
05-03-2022 5:02 PM


Re: On Appeasement
Right now it just looks like your standard "get hyper-aggressive and critical at anything you disagree with."

Of course. I am here to give my opinion, hyper-aggressive and critical as it may be.

You folks know me here. You didn't expect anything different, did you?

What you said was that NATO, the USofA, the world, did not stop a Russian action before it started.

Everyone could see the action unfolding. Everyone know Russia would invade. That is why NATO sent Macron to Moscow back in February. He came back and said, yeah Putin will invade.

By what standard of international conduct, which is supposed to be a big thing in this modern enlightened world, could NATO take unilateral military action or economic and diplomatic sanctions against Russia before it did anything? None.

You would have NATO act unilaterally? On the ground? Back in February? When the Russian military was seen as a world class battle force not the clown car it is showing itself to be? I didn't see NATO even hint in that direction. Why not?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by Percy, posted 05-03-2022 5:02 PM Percy has seen this message

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 797 of 818 (894163)
05-04-2022 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 795 by Tanypteryx
05-03-2022 5:31 PM


Re: On Appeasement
Tanypteryx writes:

It seems to me that you have been quite critical of a lack preparedness by Biden and the West.

Does holding such views turn someone into a valid target for sniper/hand grenade style posts, so much so that you tag likes to such posts?

I think AZ is asking what you think should have been done and when, and how you think it would have changed the situation as it stands right now.

No, he really wasn't. It looks to me that you and others tagged a like on a hateful and abusive post that misrepresented its target. I'm trying to understand why people would do that.

What he did do was assign me an answer and then attack it as if I had offered it myself: "Economic and diplomatic sanctions for Russia having made no move? What gives NATO the right etc..."

Remember we are all on the same side here, pro-west, pro-NATO, pro-Ukraine and anti-Putin and anti-Russian aggression, at least I think we are...

I'm not the one who got hyper-aggressive and abusive, so why are you saying this to me? Is it because I hold a view you disagree with, that Biden and NATO deserve blame for letting their guard down? If not then please explain what's really up, because it sure seems that way to me.

I haven't had a chance to say it yet, but I also believe a number of EU countries deserve blame for become increasingly dependent upon Russian fossil fuels even while Russia was becoming more and more threatening.

And about being on the same side, I don't have a side, except of reasoned discussion.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-03-2022 5:31 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-04-2022 11:50 AM Percy has taken no action
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8492
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 798 of 818 (894165)
05-04-2022 8:39 AM


This, at least is good news.

WASHINGTON, May 3 (Reuters) - Two months after warning that Beijing appeared poised to help Russia in its fight against Ukraine, senior U.S. officials say they have not detected overt Chinese military and economic support, a welcome development in the tense U.S.-China relationship.

U.S. relieved as China appears to heed warnings on Russia

Also it looks like the EU is going to embargo oil and gas from Russia and sanction anybody suspected of war crimes.

Sadly though, the Russians are storming Mariupol. Despite Putin saying they'll siege it. Apart from just being a liar, I suspect he just needs a victory there at any cost before the 9th and he'll want the forces elsewhere; what's left of them.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 799 of 818 (894168)
05-04-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 797 by Percy
05-04-2022 6:53 AM


Re: On Appeasement
Does holding such views turn someone into a valid target for sniper/hand grenade style posts, so much so that you tag likes to such posts?

Well, I didn't read it that way, and by now you should know that it is my MO to tag likes on any post that has a phrase I like.

Is it because I hold a view you disagree with, that Biden and NATO deserve blame for letting their guard down? If not then please explain what's really up, because it sure seems that way to me.

Message 785

Tanypteryx writes:

Persy writes:

But isn't that why we have a State Department, a CIA, an NSA, etc? Shouldn't agencies like the CIA and the NSA been feeding the State Department information that would have led them to a) see the critical role Ukraine plays in western security, and b) that Russia was becoming an increasing threat to Ukraine.

Well, considering that most of the most knowledgeable experts in international relations were systematically purged from many key positions in all these agencies, especially the State Department, by Trump and Pompeo (and Tillerson before him), trustworthy analysis might be in short supply. They specifically got rid of experts on Ukraine and Russia.

I suspect that many in the U.S. who were surprised by Ukraine's vigorous defense against Russia, were thinking about 20 years and trillions of dollars spent training and arming Afghans who all turned out to be our enemies and didn't want to get burned again.

I think Putin, with his sly smile, enjoys sending mixed signals to the U.S. and because he's smart enough to try and keep his rivals off balance, unlike his puppet Trump, who would never say what he intended to do because he had no clue what to do or what the issues are.

And about being on the same side, I don't have a side, except of reasoned discussion.

OK, carry on, I shouldn't have butted in.

ABE: Just to clarify.

Pursy writes:

Tanypteryx writes:

Remember we are all on the same side here, pro-west, pro-NATO, pro-Ukraine and anti-Putin and anti-Russian aggression, at least I think we are...

I'm not the one who got hyper-aggressive and abusive, so why are you saying this to me?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to be any criticism of your behavior, it was just a comment for all the participants.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by Percy, posted 05-04-2022 6:53 AM Percy has taken no action

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 800 of 818 (894170)
05-04-2022 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 794 by Percy
05-03-2022 5:02 PM


Re: On Appeasement
AZPaul3 writes:

And based on your perfect hindsight you think the west should have done, what? Economic and diplomatic sanctions for Russia having made no move?

What gives NATO the right / authority / justification to police other nations actions pre-emptively? Are you going to pay that $500 fine now for the speeding ticket you might get in 6 months?

What principle of international law conveys such authority?

Percy writes:

This seems an impulsive and irritated response that doesn't address anything I actually said, but I see it got four likes. Perhaps if people can explain what they liked about it I'll be able to figure out what there is of value in it to respond to. Right now it just looks like your standard "get hyper-aggressive and critical at anything you disagree with."

Well, I guess I'm in the Gang of Four, so after some thought, I'll respond.

First of all, I didn't think AZPaul3's response was as over the top as you clearly do. It was sharp and aggressive in tone; perhaps I've become thicker skinned than I once was. Certainly, compared to exchanges between others on other threads recently, it was not especially egregious. From your characterization of his posts above, I suppose there is history I didn't witness, but his questions didnt strike me as hand grenades or sniper fire. At a formal debate, a moderator might have reminded the participants that they were gentlemen.

Second, I had already registered my sense that you were expecting someone else's foresight to be as sharp as your excellent analysis in hindsight. I didn't think you actually addressed that in your reply, which is okay. So I acknowledged your post and moved on. What elicited a shrug from me clearly drew exasperation from AZPaul, and he expressed it by prosecuting your position. Since my perspective, already made clear, largely matched his, I liked it.

So, I think he was sharp and short with you, but not exceedingly offensive. He was responding not to what you said, but what you didn't say -- an explanation or defense of that foresight vs. hindsight tension. I was startled by your injured reply.

I did not and would not have responded his way; I've worked hard to exorcise anger, exasperation, aggression and impatience -- they are a disturbance of spirit. I would not have you think I view your superb mind -- or AZPaul's -- with anything other than deep respect. That's true of my estimation of most folks here and is why I came back when I thought my stroke-riddled brain had cleared enough to participate.

That's as plainly honest as I can be about the matter. I hope it helps to clarify my like. If it doesn't help, I truly hope it gives no further offense.

Edited by Omnivorous, : Typed one line, accidentally submitted


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 801 of 818 (894171)
05-04-2022 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 797 by Percy
05-04-2022 6:53 AM


Re: On Appeasement
It looks to me that you and others tagged a like on a hateful and abusive post that misrepresented its target.

I can be aggressive, but have no intention to be hateful. You’ve seen me hateful at others and you should know this is not it. Not toward you. Still, having helped in creating this disconnect I'll do what I can to help correct it.


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by Percy, posted 05-04-2022 6:53 AM Percy has seen this message

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 802 of 818 (894172)
05-04-2022 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 798 by Tangle
05-04-2022 8:39 AM


This, at least is good news.
I'm wondering if China is as surprised by NATO's display of back bone as Russia?
The global success of this US-led action may give pause to Chinese thoughts on Taiwan.

Edited by Admin, : Fix quoting. Must be a bug, wonder what went wrong


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 803 of 818 (894215)
05-06-2022 9:51 PM


We’re Still Scared of Putin
From White House walks a fine line with intelligence sharing in Ukraine:
quote:
But the effort raises questions about how far the White House is willing to go to help Ukraine fight the Russians while also trying to avoid provoking Moscow and getting drawn into the conflict.
Administration officials insist there are clear limits on the intelligence it shares with Ukraine, including a ban against providing precision targeting intelligence for senior Russian leaders by name, part of a White House effort to avoid crossing a line that Moscow may view as too escalatory.
—Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2022 2:41 AM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8492
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 804 of 818 (894217)
05-07-2022 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 803 by Percy
05-06-2022 9:51 PM


Re: We’re Still Scared of Putin
It feels more like we're boiling the frog to me.
We're escalating the help we're giving Ukraine, step by step trying not to give Putin excuses to do something planet threatening. I'd say that was being sensible not being scared. But sure, this is a man that possesses the power to blow up the world, he needs to be handled.
And, of course, what is said publicly is not necessarily what is actually happening. Was it a coincidence that the chief of staff, Valery Gerasimov, was hit shortly after arriving in Ukraine? And 10 Russian generals targeted and killed?
The Ukrainians are getting their intelligence from somewhere.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by Percy, posted 05-06-2022 9:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by Percy, posted 05-07-2022 9:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 805 of 818 (894221)
05-07-2022 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 804 by Tangle
05-07-2022 2:41 AM


Re: We’re Still Scared of Putin
Tangle writes:
And, of course, what is said publicly is not necessarily what is actually happening. Was it a coincidence that the chief of staff, Valery Gerasimov, was hit shortly after arriving in Ukraine? And 10 Russian generals targeted and killed?

The Ukrainians are getting their intelligence from somewhere.
US government officials have revealed that they've been providing the intelligence for targeting high Russian military officers without giving away specific names. They also provided the intelligence that resulted in the sinking of the Moskva.
In other news, despite the incompetent, decrepit and weakened condition of the Russian military, headlines here in the states announce that the west is bracing for an escalation of hostilities by Russia, e.g., Ukraine lays out peace-talk demands as the West braces for escalation.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2022 2:41 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 806 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2022 11:15 AM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8492
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 806 of 818 (894223)
05-07-2022 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 805 by Percy
05-07-2022 9:46 AM


Re: We’re Still Scared of Putin
Putin is left with a bit of a conundrum when complaining about what intelligence the West is giving Ukraine about such things as exactly where ships are so that they can be targeted.
According to them, the Moskva was sunk by a fire, not a missile.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by Percy, posted 05-07-2022 9:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 807 by Percy, posted 05-10-2022 1:11 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 807 of 818 (894273)
05-10-2022 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 806 by Tangle
05-07-2022 11:15 AM


Re: We’re Still Scared of Putin
More on how we continue to rein in how far we're willing to go from US mulls what Putin's end game might look like as war in Ukraine grinds on:
quote:
Administration officials have previously insisted there are clear limits on the intelligence it shares with Ukraine, including a ban on providing precision targeting intelligence for senior Russian leaders by name. Those limits are part of a White House effort to avoid crossing a line that Moscow may view as too escalatory.
By holding on far beyond what anyone expected at the outset Ukraine is saving itself politically (for the time being) but suffering great physical devastation. For Russia the war is going far worse than expected at the outset, but they continue to make slow progress and rain destruction on Ukraine daily.
Also from the article:
quote:
CIA Director Bill Burns shared similar concerns over the weekend, describing Putin "in a frame of mind in which he doesn't believe he can afford to lose."
"I think he's convinced right now that doubling down still will enable him to make progress," Burns said.
Clearly the administration believes Russia is capable of taking the war to another level. Whether they will or not depends upon many factors, most importantly the cost at home both economically and politically.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-10-2022 7:01 PM Percy has replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 808 of 818 (894278)
05-10-2022 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 807 by Percy
05-10-2022 1:11 PM


Re: We’re Still Scared of Putin
I think the US administration and intelligence agencies are being very deliberate and clever in their news releases. According to those recent releases, they are telling the Ukrainians, “If you target this building, you will kill a senior Russian officer, but we won’t tell you which officer.” So the US has deniability (I’m not saying credible deniability) in targeting specific individuals. But after the first couple of generals were killed, the Russians must certainly be doing everything they can to protect the remaining senior officers, including hiding their locations and travel plans. So, they must be wondering how we know where they are and where to target. I think those press releases are saying to the Russians, “We have moles planted in your senior staff and you can’t trust your own military and intelligence people.” If this is the message that Putin, who comes from high level intelligence operations, is getting, then he must be doing doodoo in his dungarees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 807 by Percy, posted 05-10-2022 1:11 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by jar, posted 05-10-2022 7:12 PM AnswersInGenitals has taken no action
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jar
Member
Posts: 33900
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 809 of 818 (894279)
05-10-2022 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by AnswersInGenitals
05-10-2022 7:01 PM


Re: We’re Still Scared of Putin
More likely he is doing "Red Queen" imitations.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20759
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 810 of 818 (894280)
05-10-2022 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by AnswersInGenitals
05-10-2022 7:01 PM


Re: We’re Still Scared of Putin
The problem with using information obtained from human assets is that they can easily be found out by making different information (including false information) available to different people and see what information the Ukraine acts on.
One possibility is that US intelligence has learned the characteristics of the entourages of various Russian generals.
During WWII there were a number of times when the allies didn't act on information obtained from Enigma machines, including information that would have saved lives, because they didn't want the Nazis to know the Enigma code had been broken.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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