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Author Topic:   God is cruel
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4894 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 226 of 301 (304089)
04-13-2006 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by jar
04-13-2006 11:21 AM


Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
jar writes:

I can find no indication in the Bible that there was ever a Fall or that there is anything like Original Sin.

I don't understand this statement jar.

Are you saying nothing at all went wrong?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 04-13-2006 11:21 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by jar, posted 04-13-2006 11:36 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31798
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 227 of 301 (304091)
04-13-2006 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-13-2006 11:32 PM


Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
I don't understand this statement jar.

Are you saying nothing at all went wrong?

Yeah, pretty much.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-13-2006 11:32 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-13-2006 11:46 PM jar has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4894 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 228 of 301 (304097)
04-13-2006 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by jar
04-13-2006 11:36 PM


Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
jar writes:

Yeah, pretty much.

But that's not true jar.

They start off naked and unashamed. They finish clothed and ashamed.
They start in God's deep presence. They finish in God's distant presense.
They start with potential for the tree of life-- and are told not to eat from the other tree.
They finish by eating from the other tree-- and are cut off from the tree of life.

While I agree that people are not 'damned to hell' because of this, I also find it just as hard to acccept that nothing went wrong either.

edit: spelling

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 04-13-2006 11:48 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by jar, posted 04-13-2006 11:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 12:01 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded
 Message 235 by lfen, posted 04-14-2006 2:04 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31798
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 229 of 301 (304102)
04-14-2006 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-13-2006 11:46 PM


Is that wrong?
Let me go over your stuff.

They start off naked and unashamed. They finish clothed and ashamed.

Nothing much wrong I can see there.

They start in God's deep presence. They finish in God's distant presense.

I see no indication of that.

They start with potential for the tree of life-- and are told not to eat from the other tree.
They finish by eating from the other tree-- and are cut off from the tree of life.

Yup, that's about the way the story goes.

But did anything go wrong?

To say that something went wrong, you have to say that GOD screwed up.

And look what we gained. We gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the big thing that makes us Humans. Without that we would be no different than the sheep or cattle.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-13-2006 11:46 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 12:30 AM jar has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4894 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 230 of 301 (304107)
04-14-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
04-14-2006 12:01 AM


Q: Is that wrong? A: Yes. It is wrong.

jar writes:

Let me go over your stuff.


Mr. Ex writes:

They start off naked and unashamed. They finish clothed and ashamed.


jar writes:

Nothing much wrong I can see there.


It seems to me that the only time people are ashamed is when they think they've done something wrong.


Mr. Ex writes:

They start in God's deep presence. They finish in God's distant presense.


jar writes:

I see no indication of that.


Then what is this?

NIV writes:

So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

If nothing was done wrong, why would God banish him if he had done something good?


Mr. Ex writes:

They start with potential for the tree of life-- and are told not to eat from the other tree.
They finish by eating from the other tree-- and are cut off from the tree of life.


jar writes:

Yup, that's about the way the story goes.


I see.

Is it safe to say that you already feel that you've proved your point?

jar writes:

But did anything go wrong?

To say that something went wrong, you have to say that GOD screwed up.

No. Actually, you don't have to say that at all. You can just as easilly say that we screwed up when that something went wrong.

jar writes:

And look what we gained. We gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the big thing that makes us Humans.

Actually, I think we gained the ability to experience evil-- which is different from knowledge. I suspect we already had some concept of good and evil in our heads before we reached out. In fact, it seems we had to have had at least some knowledge of evil beforehand-- or else we couldn't even understand God telling us not to do it in the first place.

jar writes:

Without that we would be no different than the sheep or cattle.

We apparently are no different than sheep and cattle jar. In fact, when looking at the slaughter, suffering and destruction caused by humanity throughout world history, I'm almost certain that the sheep and cattle would've been better off without us.

But, just to clarify, are you saying that the Genesis account portrays Adam and Eve as doing a good thing when partaking in the tree they apparently weren't supposed to partake in?

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 04-14-2006 12:38 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 12:01 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 12:39 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31798
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 231 of 301 (304108)
04-14-2006 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-14-2006 12:30 AM


Re: Q: Is that wrong? A: Yes. It is wrong.
But, just to clarify, are you saying that the Genesis account portrays Adam and Eve as doing a good thing when partaking in the tree they apparently weren't supposed to partake in?

Complicated question. First, the only way they could ever know to obey GOD was to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So yes, if you think being able to obey GOD is good, then it was a good thing. Second, knowing good from evil is what makes us different than animals.

So overall, I'd say it was a good thing.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 12:30 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 1:19 AM jar has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4894 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 232 of 301 (304110)
04-14-2006 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by jar
04-14-2006 12:39 AM


Re: Q: Is that wrong? A: Yes. It is wrong.
jar writes:

Complicated question.

Admittedly, it is a complicated question. It seems as though questions like this have been around for a long time too.

jar writes:

First, the only way they could ever know to obey GOD was to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

But that's not true. They knew to obey God before they partook in the tree. God told them so. Likewise, they apparently knew what the end result was going to be before they partook in the tree. God apparently told them that too.

This is the point I'm trying to bring out: even if one doesn't believe in a literal interpretation of the Genesis account, many do nonetheless admit that Adam and Eve must have had some knowledge of both good and evil before they partook in the other tree.

For example:

NIV writes:

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

Here we see a fairly clear example of Eve deciding something was good before she partook in the tree.

For many people, the decision to disobey was actually the manifestation of bringing that prior academic knowledge of evil into the realm of direct experience. In other words, just like people know that murdering was wrong long before Moses passed out the 10 Commandments, it seems very likely that Adam and Eve knew what evil was before they partook in the tree-- and at least one portion of the Scriptural account does indeed indicate this.

jar writes:

So yes, if you think being able to obey GOD is good, then it was a good thing.

I think being able to obey GOD is indeed a good thing. But I don't think their participation in the other tree was what enabled them to obey God.

jar writes:

Second, knowing good from evil is what makes us different than animals.

No. Actually, I don't think it does.

I'm almost sure that animals of the higher orders also have some primitive concept of good and evil. Certainly the rare instances of animals risking their lives to save their masters, or their own pups, indicates some basic knowledge of this. Traits of self-sacrifice can be found in various forms all throughout the animal kingdom, even to the point of insects giving over their own bodies for food for their young.

Even the book of Ecclesiastes seems to indicate that both man and animals share the same spirit and go to the same place if I recall correctly. And, oddly enough, when Jonah was called by God with the task of preaching to Ninevah, everyone from the king to the paupers put on sackcloth and ashes. But that wasn't all. We are also told that even the animals were made to wear sackcloth and ashes.

jar writes:

So overall, I'd say it was a good thing.

Provided one could clearly demonstrate that humans are indeed better than animals. While I admit that we certainly have a vaster knowledge than the animals intellectually speaking, I remain unconvinced on this point in regards to better human behavior. It seems rather tragic to admit this, but, on the whole, it seems to me that the animals are in some ways morally superior and may even have more faith in God than we do.

NIV writes:

"But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;

or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
or let the fish of the sea inform you.

Which of all these does not know
that the hand of the LORD has done this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 12:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 1:30 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31798
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 233 of 301 (304111)
04-14-2006 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-14-2006 1:19 AM


Re: Q: Is that wrong? A: Yes. It is wrong.
But that's not true. They knew to obey God before they partook in the tree.

How? Without a knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, how would they know? Sure GOD says don't do something. But until you know right from wrong, that has no meaning.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 1:19 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 2:04 AM jar has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4894 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 234 of 301 (304117)
04-14-2006 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by jar
04-14-2006 1:30 AM


Re: Q: Is that wrong? A: Yes. It is wrong.
You're not suggesting they didn't know what death was? Certainly they would have seen this happening in the animals and plants around them-- they would have understood this was 'bad' if it happened to them.

Besides that, I've already pointed to a passage of Scripture where Eve concluded something was 'good' before she partook in the other tree-- which seems to indicate that they knew this basic knowledge already.

In addition to this, the Scriptures apparently do not indicate that humanity is better than the animals-- because they often point to the animals as understanding God better than humans do.

I've already pointed to many examples of this in the Scriptures. But I suppose one could point out that even Baalam's ass saw the angel of the Lord before Balaam did.

The only exception to this positive characterization of animals innately knowing God, as far as I can determine, is the story of the serpent itself in the Genesis account.

But, then again, I don't think the serpent in the Genesis account was merely a snake. The symbolism pointing to pagan religious beliefs involving serpentine idolatry seems overwhelming to me.

Don't get me wrong. I can understand what you're saying. But the general concensus of the Scriptures seems to contradict the claim that Adam and Eve's participation in the tree is what raised them above the animals.

According to the Scriptures, at least in the small portions that discuss this idea, apparently the animals know God better than we do. Their behaviors are morally superior too-- because, unlike humanity, they apparently don't generally question God's will.

I mean if you believe that the Scriptures are teaching that their participation in the other tree is what raised them above the animals, you're certainly entiled to your beleifs. I'm just pointing out that, oddly enough, this concept of humanity being better than the animals, morally speaking, seems to be strangely absent from the Scriptures themselves.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 04-14-2006 02:11 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 1:30 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ReverendDG, posted 04-14-2006 2:26 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded
 Message 245 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 12:38 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

lfen
Member (Idle past 3022 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 235 of 301 (304118)
04-14-2006 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-13-2006 11:46 PM


Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
I also find it just as hard to acccept that nothing went wrong either.

I'll toss in a decidely non christian and most definitely non literalist understanding of the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Humans did at some point develop reflexive self awareness of themselves and with this a consciousness of their actions including judgements of themselves and their actions. This self reflexive consciousness resulted in an ego which feels itself to be a separate and independent entity.

With this comes feelings of aloneness, uncertainty, fears, guilt the whole "burden" of self consciousness. Feeling separate from All That Is (can be referenced as God) humans began to suffer from their separation. And as humans are wont to do this suffering felt like a punishment, and if punished they must have been guilty of something that brought about the separation. Feeling out of harmony with God's will the crime then is disobediance.

Living in Eden is living in a state of oneness with All That Is, with the Universe, or God. The story of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden is a mythical expression of the understanding of the loss when self consciousness which includes the judgements of good and evil comes into being.

The fall is a falling into individual consciousness, identification with the organism as a delimited entity, a falling into the dream of being separate and suffering from that sense of separation or sin.

This is an extremely condensed capsule overview of my take on the story. On the one hand nothing went wrong. All That Is has manifested this. On the other hand it feels wrong and disjointed and consciousness caught in the dream finds the isolation to be at times a nightmare and seeks release, or return to knowing that it and the Whole are one.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-13-2006 11:46 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 2:24 AM lfen has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4894 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 236 of 301 (304122)
04-14-2006 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by lfen
04-14-2006 2:04 AM


Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
There's actually an interesting unorthodox Mormon article which kind of relates to your thoughts here. It actually suggests that before Adam and Eve, people were in a dream-like state.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by lfen, posted 04-14-2006 2:04 AM lfen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by lfen, posted 04-14-2006 2:59 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2455 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 237 of 301 (304123)
04-14-2006 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-14-2006 2:04 AM


Re: Q: Is that wrong? A: Yes. It is wrong.
You're not suggesting they didn't know what death was? Certainly they would have seen this happening in the animals and plants around them-- they would have understood this was 'bad' if it happened to them.

if you read genesis, it never really talks about death until god says something about it

I mean if you
believe that the Scriptures are teaching that their participation in the other tree is what raised them above the animals, you're certainly entiled to your beleifs. I'm just pointing out that, oddly enough, this concept of humanity being better than the animals seems to be strangely absent from the Scriptures themselves.

hmm you don't consider the line about being the one being made in the image of god not being better than all the other animals?

n addition to this, the Scriptures apparently do not indicate that humanity is better than the animals-- because they often point to the animals as understanding God better than humans do.

verse where it says this please :)

Don't get me wrong. I can understand what you're saying. But the general concensus of the Scriptures seems to contradict the claim that Adam and Eve's participation in the tree is what raised them above the animals.

human pride shows up in genesis via the fact that the authors write that we are made in gods image, that alone says we are better than other animals (at least as far as the authors of genesis thought)

According to the Scriptures, at least in the small portions that discuss this idea, apparently the animals know God better than we do. Their behaviors are morally superior too-- because, unlike humanity, they apparently don't generally question God's will.

i would say they are less cought up in self than us rather than they know god better than us, what i mean is they don't have things like human relations to effect perceptions.
i wouldn't say animals are morally superior, they have no morals at all, they are amoral most likely, and do not precieve things the way humanity sometimes does

But, then again, I don't think the serpent in the Genesis account was merely a snake. The symbolism pointing to pagan religious beliefs involving serpentine idolatry seems overwhelming to me.

maybe the author was trying to say something, but its not remotely a common belief by anyone - we can't say eather way unless we can get time travel to work :)

{Abe:sigh must be time for bed soon :)}

This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 04-14-2006 02:28 AM

This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 04-14-2006 02:29 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 2:04 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 1:14 PM ReverendDG has responded

lfen
Member (Idle past 3022 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 238 of 301 (304135)
04-14-2006 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-14-2006 2:24 AM


Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
I've read Jaynes book and it was fascinating. The position I'm advocating is the reverse of that though. I am saying our consciousness is the illusion, the dream and that the way out is to wake up. This is a statement from a Buddhist or Advaita non dual veiewpoint.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 2:24 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

RickJB
Member (Idle past 3335 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 239 of 301 (304146)
04-14-2006 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by riVeRraT
04-05-2006 8:25 PM


I hope you don't mind me cutting in here? Your previous response seemed to have gone unanswered.

quote:
Again no offense, but isn't this a delusion itself?
People seem to think that because gravity exists, we are subject to it.

Observed evidence seems to clearly indicate this!

quote:
Anyway with the faith you just described, you will never get to overcome gravity.

The is no evidence that anyone has ever used faith in God to "overcome" gravity. Yet we have clear examples of how man has used science to do something akin to this! By this I mean rocketry and flight.

quote:
Typically the next response will be someone telling me to jump off a bridge or something, lol.

Well you have set yourself up for such a question, and joking about it doesn't get you off the hook! In that case I'll ask the obvious - would you be prepared to test the validitiy of your faith by jumping off a bridge?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by riVeRraT, posted 04-05-2006 8:25 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by riVeRraT, posted 04-14-2006 9:28 AM RickJB has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 265 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 240 of 301 (304185)
04-14-2006 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by RickJB
04-14-2006 4:15 AM


quote:Again no offense, but isn't this a delusion itself?
People seem to think that because gravity exists, we are subject to it.

Observed evidence seems to clearly indicate this!

Yes, that is what I said.
You took only part of the sentence.

Maybe I should have said gravity exists, AND we are subject to it.

The is no evidence that anyone has ever used faith in God to "overcome" gravity.

Well, the bible states, that Jesus walked on water. There is only subjective evidence, but it was enough to start something that lasted 2,000 years, and still going.

would you be prepared to test the validitiy of your faith by jumping off a bridge?

You cannot test anyones validity of faith.

I have stated elsewhere that my faith has not reached that level. I wish it was.

I have jumped off 2 bridges in my life. Both times I hit the ground/water.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by RickJB, posted 04-14-2006 4:15 AM RickJB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by RickJB, posted 04-14-2006 1:49 PM riVeRraT has not yet responded

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