There you Go,YECs...biblical "evidence" of "flat earth beliefs"

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Originally posted by Punisher:
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in"

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Yeah bud circle not globe, sphere, etc (3D) but circle (2D)....If they meant sphere they should not have said circle

Interesting I recently saw something to the effect that the hebrew for sphere was derived from the babylonian for skull.... It began with a g and definately wasn`t "khug" which is circle......I`ll have to try and find it....

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Originally posted by doctrbill:

That was by me. There are two words - "gulgoleth", which is translated as head or skull, and "gullah", which is translated as pommel or bowl. (a pommel is the knob on the handle of a sword)

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These are derived from the Babylonian gulgulla. They used this word to describe a style of water jug.

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Thanks Dr B.I would of mentioned it was you if i could have remembered.....

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Originally posted by doctrbill:
You imply that there were proofs. How did they prove this?

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I can`t remember exactly who or when or where but a greek around this time (500 BC) conducted an experiment by measuring the angle of the shadow cast in a well a known distance west of an point at the time the sun was directly overhead at that initial point.The data lead him to the conclusion that the Earth was a sphere and he even made a calculation of the Earths radius that is surprisingly accurate (given the potential for large expirimental error)....I`ll get to work trying to track down who, when, where and more precise info on how....

Seems that it was Erastothenes of Cyrene around the 300 - 200 BC time period. http://math.nmsu.edu/morandi/math112s99/RadiusOfEarth.htmlGives how and where the measurements were made and what results were obtained. The actuall calculation is left to the reader....

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Originally posted by doctrbill:
Eristothenes is the name, but I thought it was much later than 500 BC. And, if I am not mistaken, his accomplishment was in measuring the circumference of earth (assuming that it was spherical). I am still unsure how the ancients came to be certain of the spherical shape.

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Yep thats the name and yes it was 2 or 3 centuries later see my post 44 for link...The Greeks were very much enamoured of pi and circles/spheres so they probably reached that decision a priori based on the "perfection" of the sphere.....I really doubt that it was an empiricaly derived conclusion...

I stand corrected....Maybe that is why they were so enamoured of pi....

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:
a)In 1965, Arno Pezias and Robert Wilson discovered that the microwave radiation we recieve from the universe is basically the same no matter in which direction we look.

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b)...Second, the universe looks the same regardless of which planet, solar system, or galaxy it was viewed from.

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c)And third, the earth is at the center of the universe.

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d)The first two possibilities are easily disproven. i)The former is voided by the physical expansion of the universe and is seldom now considered a viable theory.
ii)The latter is nullified mathematically, since it requires the existence of a three-dimensional plane.

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e)However, even if these two possibilities were valid they both lead to the conclusion that every point within the universe is the center, thus allowing for a geocentric perception.

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f)The third conclusion currently stands unrefuted by science and is in complete agreement with the claims of Scripture

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a)Yes CBR (cosmic background radiation) Black body radiation at a temperature of around 2.7 Kelvin...b)Not the universe, the CBR there is a difference and not even a subtle one at that...c)How does this follow from homogenous CBR? the Earth could be at the center of a universe with non homogenous CBR...d)Oh goody, lead on McDuff....
i)Good I never liked the whole infinite universe thing anyway, made me agrophobic....ii)Ok run that one past me again? how does a homogenous CBR (It isn`t perfectly homogenous by the way just pretty close) require a 3D plane?e)OR that everything started at the centre in a Big Bang....f)I beg to differ....As Monty Python put it:

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[singing]
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

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Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.
*boom*
*slurp*

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The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.[/singing]

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Originally posted by Philip:
If minimal asymmetry exists, perhaps a homogenous centralized expansion (centering near earth’s galaxy) may be supported, no?

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No, If Milky way were centre then we would observe no blue shifted galaxies (we do observe the odd one or two, I think Andromeda is one)...Blue shifted galaxies observed = milky way not centre....

But I think you will agree that anything that is measured as moving relative to the universe cannot be at the center of that universe....Bye bye geocentricity and even Heliocentricity/milkywaycentricity of the universe....Feel free to show mathmaticaly how you feel nearly homogenous CBR suggests a spherical plane...Oh by the way are you the same fella as Littlejimberry and Thmsberry? or related in any way?

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Originally posted by w_fortenberry:
a)No, I would not agree; for in any system containing two or more objects with at least one of those objects in motion, the motion of any object within that system can be measured relative to any other object within that system. The classic illustration of this principle is that of a ball being thrown from the front of a moving vehicle to the back. The motion of the ball can be meassured relative to either the vehicle or the planet on which the vehicle is moving or any other object within the universe.

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b)You will please notice that I have not claimed that nearly homogenous CBR suggests a spherical plane. I have in fact stated that the existence of our universe as such is an impossibility. Why then should I attempt to provide mathematical proof of the existence of something which I have claimed cannot exist?

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c)Not that it matters any in a scientific debate, but no, I am not.

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a)But in this case the car in the analogy is the universe...Do you think that a ball trown from one end to another of a car is the centre of the car?The anisotropy measurement yeilds our speed relative to the universe itself rather than any single constituent part...b)This whole discussion was started by your statement that

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In 1965, Arno Pezias and Robert Wilson discovered that the microwave radiation we recieve from the universe is basically the same no matter in which direction we look. This discovery can lead to only three possible conclusions. First, the universe is infinite. Second, the universe looks the same regardless of which planet, solar system, or galaxy it was viewed from. And third, the earth is at the center of the universe.

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The first two possibilities are easily disproven. The former is voided by the physical expansion of the universe and is seldom now considered a viable theory. The latter is nullified mathematically, since it requires the existence of a three-dimensional plane.

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However, even if these two possibilities were valid they both lead to the conclusion that every point within the universe is the center, thus allowing for a geocentric perception.

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So you were saying that CBR is homogenous and thus the universe is geocentric, you also later referred to 3D plane as spherical plane. Basing your claim for geocentricity on the lack of viability of a model that the observed evidence (NON-homogenous CBR) doesn`t suggest is a questionable tactic at best outright dishonest or ignorant at worst...Your dodging and weaving and moving goalposts left right and centre bud....c)Just checking it struck me as an odd coincidence that 3 creationists chose names ending in Berry....