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Author Topic:   There you Go,YECs...biblical "evidence" of "flat earth beliefs"
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 13 of 243 (5693)
02-27-2002 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by toff
02-27-2002 6:17 AM


quote:
Originally posted by toff:
The usual response is that the word used COULD mean sphere...since the hebrews had no word for 'sphere'. Unfortunately, this is untrue, but it's the standard response frmo creationists who don't expect their opponents to know much ancient hebrew.
The Hebrews did indeed have a word which was used to indicate spherical shape.
The word is GULGOLETH from the Babylonian GULGULA, meaning head or skull.
Babylonians applied this word to their globular water jars.
The Hebrews used a variant of it, GULLAH, to describe pommels and bowls.
GOLGOTHA (place of the skull) is the name of the hill on which Jesus was crucified.
(pommel is the rounded knob on the hilt of a sword)
----------
db

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 24 of 243 (5769)
02-28-2002 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by joz
02-27-2002 5:15 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Interesting I recently saw something to the effect that the hebrew for sphere was derived from the babylonian for skull.... It began with a g and definately wasn`t "khug" which is circle......
I`ll have to try and find it....

That was by me. There are two words - "gulgoleth", which is translated as head or skull, and "gullah", which is translated as pommel or bowl. (a pommel is the knob on the handle of a sword)
These are derived from the Babylonian gulgulla. They used this word to describe a style of water jug.
------------
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by joz, posted 02-27-2002 5:15 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Brad McFall, posted 02-28-2002 11:03 AM doctrbill has not replied
 Message 36 by joz, posted 02-28-2002 11:18 AM doctrbill has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 28 of 243 (5791)
02-28-2002 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by gene90
02-28-2002 9:14 AM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
... don't you think the Sun and Moon both stopping would be as likely to be a poetic device rather than an observation?
The Jerusalem Bible, Reader's Edition, contains this footnote for Joshua 10:13 -
"Lines from a popular song, appealing for time to secure victory, are here adapted to the author's purpose."
Another example of such poetic fancy may be found at Isaiah 24:19, 23.
"The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved ... it shall fall, and not rise again. ... the moon shall be confounded and the sun ashamed ..."
The passage in Joshua reminds me of a 1950's Sci. Fi. movie titled:
"The Day the Earth Stood Still".
[ i.e. Ordinary life came to a halt.]

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 30 of 243 (5796)
02-28-2002 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Peter
02-28-2002 9:29 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
The idea of a flat earth arose during the dark ages (or possibly
a medieval era), and that PRIOR to that, during the time the
bible was written, people knew that the earth was NOT FLAT!!!

The idea of a spherical earth was endorsed by Aristotle circa 300 BC. The Flat Earth concept goes back to the earliest writings of the Sumerian sages, circa 2500 BC.
------------------
Bachelor of Arts - Loma Linda University
Major - Biology; Minor - Religion
Anatomy and Physiology - LLU School of Medicine
Embryology - La Sierra University
Biblical languages - Pacific Union College
Bible doctrines - Walla Walla College

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Peter, posted 02-28-2002 9:29 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Peter, posted 03-01-2002 7:09 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 31 of 243 (5798)
02-28-2002 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by LudvanB
02-28-2002 10:00 AM


quote:
Originally posted by LudvanB:
If the hebrew who originaly authored the Bible KNEW that the earth was a huge ball of dirt hurtling through space at a wopping 29.8 km/s,they certainly did not make this knowledge self evident in their writings. Only on a small flat earth could there be a mountain that would allow one to see the WHOLE WORLD. And when they say the earth cannot be moved,i dont see how else this can be interpreted with any level of credibility
The key to understanding these passages is to realize the the word translated as "earth" never referred to "planet earth". Have you ever wondered why the creation narrative mentions sun, moon and stars but does not mention planets? To the ancient Hebrews, planets were a kind of star. They did not imagine earth to be one of those!
----------
db

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 34 of 243 (5807)
02-28-2002 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Brad McFall
02-28-2002 10:58 AM


The sound of this is intriguing but unintelligible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Brad McFall, posted 02-28-2002 10:58 AM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Brad McFall, posted 02-28-2002 11:21 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 38 of 243 (5849)
02-28-2002 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Brad McFall
02-28-2002 11:21 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Brad McFall:
Doc,
Why did you say that I need only rework the TWO papers of Newton, one a letter on unisons and the other on a certain spirit to respond.
I had thought that by trying to let another poster know immediately the better to faciiliate a chagned response but my net expeierence showed not otherwise but that the two-sided ness to creation/evolution discussion no one seems willing to ameliorate. I said this for a specifi rendering that is ongoing this week in Croizat methodlogy but not many pursue panbiogeography and Grehan has rejected my English not my existence as the people at Cornell did. Sorry to see you feel this way about what Croiat wrote approvingly of Schmidt the herpetologist. But that said nothing of either creation or evolution but of the speciality you may not be as familiar with as I am. Thanks just the same.

Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about. And THAT is what I was talking about. Get it?
My apologies if you are dyslexic. But come on! Can YOU understand what you have written?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Brad McFall, posted 02-28-2002 11:21 AM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Mister Pamboli, posted 02-28-2002 11:32 PM doctrbill has not replied
 Message 46 by Brad McFall, posted 03-01-2002 11:36 AM doctrbill has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 42 of 243 (5889)
03-01-2002 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Peter
03-01-2002 7:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
And the spherical earth concept in Ancient Greece dates to about
500 BCE when Pythagoras studied in Persia.

I cite Aristotle's acceptance of the theory because his opinion was so influential among the fence-sitters.
quote:
Sophisticated astronomy existed in Mesopotamia by 3000BCE, including the concept of a celestial sphere. If the sphere was regarded as THE shape of the heavens ...
Can you direct me to the source of this information?
quote:
It was KNOWN in 500BCE that the earth was a sphere, but that information did not emerge from a vacuum.
You imply that there were proofs. How did they prove this?
quote:
The Ancient Greek philosophers studied widely of what was to THEM ancient literature.
Indeed. They inherited the accumulated knowledge of Egypt and Babylonia. One of the perc’s of world conquest.
---------
db

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 Message 40 by Peter, posted 03-01-2002 7:09 AM Peter has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by joz, posted 03-01-2002 11:15 AM doctrbill has replied
 Message 44 by joz, posted 03-01-2002 11:23 AM doctrbill has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 45 of 243 (5893)
03-01-2002 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by joz
03-01-2002 11:15 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
I`ll get to work trying to track down who, when, where and more precise info on how....

Eristothenes is the name, but I thought it was much later than 500 BC. And, if I am not mistaken, his accomplishment was in measuring the circumference of earth (assuming that it was spherical). I am still unsure how the ancients came to be certain of the spherical shape.
---------
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by joz, posted 03-01-2002 11:15 AM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by joz, posted 03-01-2002 12:53 PM doctrbill has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2793 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 94 of 243 (379124)
01-23-2007 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudvanB
02-26-2002 2:37 PM


More Complicated Than That
LudvanB writes:
Those passages clearly demonstrate that the writers thereof firmly believed that the earth was flat and stationary.
Hello Ludvan, long time no see.
We are handicapped in our understanding of the Bible because we read it in English, and during the Space Age.
Our ancient friends did not imagine the universe as we do, and few of us have learned to imagine it as they did. Not that everyone should dumb down to that extent but I think it is important to do so if one intends to understand the words they used to describe the universe they imagined. Because virtually all English translations follow in the tradition of the KJV (AV) with regard to rendering of the Hebrew cosmological narrative, we remain stuck with a 16th century lingo encumbered with 20th century definitions and none of it speaking to the limitations of the underlying Bronze Age terminology.
It is interesting to note that the first 1500 years of recorded astronomical observation and cosmological speculation yielded no published consideration of global theory: the idea that Earth and Sea are a unit and wrapped around a giant ball. Then, around 600 BC controversial papers on the subject began to be published by the think tanks of Grecia. Thus global theory was born. But then you probably already knew that, eh?
What you may not know already is that biblical authors, at least those who wrote before the time of Aristotle, seem to be unaware, unconvinced, or opposed to the notion that the erets (land, country, ground) should by definition include the yam (sea) and all that wrapped around a humongous ball. They had never written of erets that way before and were apparently not particularly interested in writing about it that way now. The concept was foreign to their vocabulary. How were they to describe an erets which included all the lands and all the seas known to man. It might help to have a new word. But the evolution of the science outpaced the evolution of the language. And shortly after global theory was put into print, the Hebrew language itself became extinct. It blended with the language of Chaldea and Assyria, the major forces of the land of Aram. Today we call that language (now dead itself) Aramaic.
I have selected a few verses which you might find interesting in this connection.
quote:
"... they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth." Job 37:12
Just so you know: the word 'world' is given for the Hebrew tebel "moist" (Strong's #8398) which has its root in yabal "flow" (#2986) see also yabal "stream" (#2988) i.e. running water. The sort of thing which makes a place habitable. By some coincidence, tebel just happens to be defined as: "habitable earth" (Young).
quote:
"His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled." Psa 97:4
"world" is given for tebel
"earth" is given for erets
One more for now:
quote:
"... I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven." Eze 29:5
Where "field" is given for erets.
There is more but it is late, I am tired.
So, until next time ...

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
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