Biblical contradictions II

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Ofcourse this is all nonsense to me as there IS NO PROBLEM.Except in your mind. The absolute FACT is that NO human died before they ate from the tree, therefore no matter what you say God was correct. Go on suprise me and admitt it I'm right that no one died previously!

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The actual occurrence of a death is not necessary for the argument to be true. God said that if they ate from the tree they would live forever, which means that without eating it they would die. That the tree existed before and after the fall implies that death was a real possibility from the beginning. He didn't say "in the day that you eat of the tree, your eventual death due to old age will become unavoidable." The whole story falls apart unless you're willing to accept the logical inconsistencies.

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Ofcourse this is all nonsense to me as there IS NO PROBLEM.Except in your mind. The absolute FACT is that NO human died before they ate from the tree, therefore no matter what you say God was correct. Go on suprise me and admitt it I'm right that no one died previously!

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The actual occurrence of a death is not necessary for the argument to be true. God said that if they ate from the tree they would live forever, which means that without eating it they would die. That the tree existed before and after the fall implies that death was a real possibility from the beginning. He didn't say "in the day that you eat of the tree, your eventual death due to old age will become unavoidable." The whole story falls apart unless you're willing to accept the logical inconsistencies.

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Every creationist will agree with me that 'death came through sin' before sin there was no death, God said they would know good and evil, so he would not say 'you will know good and evil' if they where going to die instantly. The FACT is that they were made whole, man and woman , they did not age or the would have also been young, but as God said if they ate of the tree they would die , death was not planned by God, remember they could listen to God's voice who they knew was boss or satans , they chose satan, so get use to it man is sinful, if you cannot handle that it's your problem. This is no major problem to believers or creationists, that is the last I have to say on this!

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It's a commonly accepted belief that has come down through the ages as tradition, but it is not supported by a literal reading of the text. I was taught to believe that, and I was a good little drone and did so, but a more objective reading does not support my past belief. Are you going to address the factual objections to your interpretation or play the "we can't understand so let's just believe" card again?

You're obscuring a lot of the basic facts by writing in such a disorganized way there. Sorry to complain... but it has been established that:1. God said that if they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would die a physical death.
2. The serpent (not Satan, the serpent) told Eve that the fruit would make her and Adam know good and evil, like gods (as the name of the tree implied).
3. They ate the fruit and what the serpent predicted came true. God was afraid that they would eat of the tree of life and become immortal, so he made them leave.All of this implies that God, not the serpent, was the deceiver, and that Adam and Eve were NOT already immortal (or the second tree would have had no purpose). Can you contradict any of these things based on your reading of Genesis, with an ordered explanation?[This message has been edited by zephyr, 07-23-2003]

DOH!!!!

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'Isn't temptation an evil act?'
Yes God does not tempt, only satan, therefore we can conclude by your own logic the serpant was satan.

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I didn't post that. Nobody's logic but the traditional Christian logic concludes that the serpent was Satan. One could just as easily claim that the God in the garden was Satan, because he lied to the people he had created and cursed their future after they exposed his deception. I'm not per se making this claim, but I consider it to be more reasonable and defensible than saying the serpent was Satan. If the author of Genesis knew that, why didn't he just write it?

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Even when I admitt to being wrong they still seek blood, their self righteoussness is unbelievable, and they favour science?

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Who's out for blood?When did you admit to being wrong? (post number would be sufficient)I'm not seeing the self-righteousness either... if you're talking about Rhain's last post, all I see is a very detailed and critical analysis based on a literal reading of the Bible. That's all you can expect in an open debate forum... your ideas will be challenged. It's not personal. You're not being persecuted.

[quote]': And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:'But God said they would die so the serpant was lying against God!

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How many times do I have to say 'I could be wrong'

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It certainly is a redeeming quality that you do so.

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I havent added that much , do you agree it does in no way (genesis) suggests God is satan? no offence but you guys are transparent.

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I think what several of us are suggesting is that the text, which assigns names to various characters, betrays facts that could lead to a different interpretation - i.e., this "bad guy" character is actually the one who tells the truth, why should we hate him? And this "God" seems to be very unfair and dishonest in dealing with the ignorant, helpless, innocent people he has created - so maybe we have the names mixed up.

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you agree with each other that God is a liar and could be satan and believe in serpants over the creator. but genesis is not about a righteouss serpant as the serpant is quite clearly the bad guy.

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Right, a bad guy who tells Eve what will happen and is proven to be correct, as God himself admits later in the story after she eats the fruit and proves the serpent to be correct.

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Where does it say the serpant is with God or good,

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Nobody claims that. The serpent merely tells the truth and is cursed forever as a result.

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did not God punish the serpant for it's evil?

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He punished the serpent for telling the truth and allowing helpless, innocent people to learn the knowledge of good and evil.

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are you saying the bible is suggestin the serpant is righteouss and above God?

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The Bible seems to claim the opposite (or at least assume we believe the opposite) while including many facts that suggest exactly that.

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I don't think any one with common sense thinks that.

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Of course not.

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Asgara,
Where do you get off stating that God lied? If you are going to have an INTELLIGENT response then you should back up your thought with some evidence. Adam and Eve DID die. They started dying the moment they took the fruit. They were meant to live forever but at the moment they ate the fruit, they began to become mortal and all of creation fell into that state as well. Genesis DOESN'T need to state that they died spiritually. If you read Romans 5:12 you will see that death has come upon us because of Adam's sin. We die not only physically but also spiritually, we are separated from God. Since you are not a believer you will not understand this point. If you are a believer then you should repent of saying that God is a liar. God CANNOT lie. I would hate to be in your shoes.

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Hi.Most of your arguments have been susbstantially refuted earlier in this thread. If you feel the need to make claims that have been already answered, it would be fair to expect that you address the objections, don't you think? Because, based on the literal reading of Genesis, it has been argued very clearly and convincingly that God did in fact lie, that Adam and Eve were not meant to live forever, and that the serpent (who was, incidentally, not The Devil) was condemned solely for the act of telling them truthfully what would happen, as verified by the later words of God himself.Since you just got on the high horse about "evidence," I find it all the more confusing that you failed to include any scriptural quotations or dispute the ones offered in direct contradiction to your assertions. Would you consider doing these things?

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It was clearly different and quite mysterious, the text does not say (I dont think). However God says and warns not to touch it . Now the tree of life had become untouchable aswell because of mans 'shameful fall'.

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The text is not mysterious at all about the effects of the fruit. God and the serpent agreed about its effects. If you're talking about the reason God put it there, right in front of the people, when they weren't supposed to eat it... well, I have to agree with Rhain. They were set up. They did not know right from wrong, and they were bound to fail, especially when their omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent god........ left them alone with the tree and didn't watch them! (hello!)As far as the tree of life being untouchable, I think that's the wrong word. They obviously had the power to touch it, or they wouldn't have been exiled from the garden.

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1. They did die eventually and as soon as they took the fruit it started.

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It didn't happen that day. Furthermore, the Bible doesn't ever say it started that day, does it?It's nice and dramatic to say we start dying when we're born, or whatever, but when somebody says you're going to die on a particular day, especially if you're a simpleton with literally no knowledge of anything, born pretty much yesterday, there's only one way to take it: you will drop dead. The undeniable fact is that the fruit did something to them very different from what God said, and EXACTLY as the serpent predicted. They gained knowledge of good and evil, and lived hundreds of years thereafter.

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This happens to everyone that accepts Jesus by faith.We receive the Holy Spirit and as we live with God we start to understand His Will by REVELATION and not by INFORMATION.These are the keywords.

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How come we still have so many people claiming that observation of nature should lead us to God, then?

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But man was tempted by the serpent(that was POSSESSED by Satan)

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There's zero scriptural basis for that one. If it were vital for us to know that the shining angel who rebelled against God were wandering around the garden in the shape of a snake, it would have taken very little effort for the author of Genesis to tell us. He (or she) didn't.Besides, if the serpent was possessed, what he did wasn't his fault. However, the serpent, and not Satan, was cursed in a physical manner that describes snakes to this day - crawling on their bellies.

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Have the Knowledge of Good and Evil=Being dead spiritually Ok?

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So God is spiritually dead now? He himself said that Adam and Eve had become like him, having the knowledge of good and evil. You have the knowledge of good and evil, yet you claim to be no longer spiritually dead. You just shot yourself in the foot pretty badly.

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Satan know they would die but only told them half the thruth.

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Satan is not in the story, and they did not die. The word used has been demonstrated to connote a very physical death.[This message has been edited by zephyr, 07-29-2003]

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Hey why dont you read a text till the end? That is the correct thing to do.You can not comment some piece of text without the entire text.That is because the answer to some question might be in another part of the text.That is called contextualization.

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Believe me, I was raised in a fundamentalist church and indoctrinated in text and context quite well. Take your own advice and read the context of my post, to which you are responding. In this case, the context is the previous posts in the thread that refute your arguments by using actual quotations from Genesis.

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Go read my 323 message of the previous thread TILL the END.
Ok.I HAVE SAID THAT before the fall there were no death but after there is.

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You saying it doesn't make it true. I was taught the same thing practically from birth, but it is not supported by an objective reading of the book.

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Dont we SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE death in our days? .Go to a cemetery please.Did you see in the cemetery that God didnt lie?

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God said Adam and Eve would die THAT DAY. They did not die that day. If they had died that day, the cemeteries wouldn't exist because, in the words of T.S. Eliot, "there is no one to bury" as all humanity have died simultaneously.

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ITs EVIDENT.Your dictionary definitions have no time conection .

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Again, the Bible says you are wrong. God said that on the same day when they ate the fruit, they would surely die. Since they lived hundreds of years afterward, you have no case.

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Somewhere in the epistles there are a reference of Satan deceiving Eve.

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You'll have to do better than that.

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For the other user i have to say that people who receive Jesus by faith understand the spiritual things but the other ones needs scientifical explanations if they cant achieve it by faith(Jesus said that these ones are not well-ventured).For example Thomas had not faith and Jesus had to show his hands to him.

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If he appeared to me today and showed me his hands, I'd probably respond just like Thomas did. However, all my attempts to live the life of faith for which I was raised have left me feeling betrayed, alone, and generally ill-prepared to face the real world. I spent years believing that the best response to those who wanted to see it to believe it was "believe and only then will you see." I believed, and continued to believe when I had doubts - but I never saw anything more than I was taught to see, and expected and forced myself to see.[This message has been edited by zephyr, 07-29-2003]