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Author
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Topic: Biblical contradictions II
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 2 of 307 (46934)
07-22-2003 6:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Newborn
07-22-2003 4:54 PM
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Hi Newborn, I know you weren't replying to me as I wasn't involved in the original thread, but I wanted to comment on your post.
Then they had responsability to obey God not the serpent.
It is unfair for a supreme being to post a law after a less powerful entity(Satan in this case).Without a law first and a temptation next sin could not exist.It dont makes sense to have a temptation before a law.That is because the more powerful one can not be unfair Responsibility implies knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil). Law implies knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil). Before they ate of the tree they did not know the difference. Punishing A & E (and all mankind) when they had no prior understanding of the wrongness of the act IS unfair.
Oh,and Adam and Eve died but it was a spiritual death meaning they were doomed with the entire creation and loose their relationship with God Where does it say in Genesis that it was a spiritual death? Considering that after god lied to them about eating of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" he was extremely worried about them eating of the "tree of life" and living forever. It seems to me that for god to be worried about that it meant that they were never meant to live forever in the first place ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Newborn, posted 07-22-2003 4:54 PM | | Newborn has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Hi Mike,
Well it's quite simple to understand. Will they prefer what God says or will they be tempted. It was a test man and woman failed, not God.They didn't know good and evil but their hearts (the heart of man is desperately wicked) preffered temptation.
(bold mine) hhmmm...gee I thought man was perfect before the fall it would seem that what they preferred was the truth. ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 07-22-2003 7:55 PM | | mike the wiz has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Hi Mike, I know this answer is plastered all over this forum, but here it goes again..
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." RSV Not only did he lie, he admitted it. And once again, if god meant spiritual death, show me where he said this. ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 07-22-2003 9:29 PM | | mike the wiz has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Sorry Mike, I don't think it is clear cut and I don't understand... where does it say in the creation account that there was no death? ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 07-22-2003 10:13 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 18 of 307 (46982)
07-22-2003 11:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by John
07-22-2003 11:21 PM
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LOL I'm glad I checked back...I was just about to post that exact same info  ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by John, posted 07-22-2003 11:21 PM | | John has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by John, posted 07-22-2003 11:25 PM | | Asgara has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 20 of 307 (46984)
07-22-2003 11:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by John
07-22-2003 11:25 PM
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I don't know John I have been reading this forum for the past few months and keep seeing some posters that do not seem to be able to find the simple things that come up on the top of the list when I google...or that obviously can't access and read the links that others give them. The only logical answer is that there are two internets and this forum is the only connecting point.  ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by John, posted 07-22-2003 11:25 PM | | John has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by John, posted 07-22-2003 11:40 PM | | Asgara has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Mike,
Ofcourse this is all nonsense to me as there IS NO PROBLEM.Except in your mind. The absolute FACT is that NO human died before they ate from the tree, therefore no matter what you say God was correct. Go on suprise me and admitt it I'm right that no one died previously! You are really splitting hairs now...of course no one had died previously, they were supposedly the first humans. The issue is whether or not death as a concept was planned. Was death a natural part of the creation or did it solely come into play after the fall, and where does it say this? Using your quote up above, it makes the fall even more ridiculous....punishing you with something that was going to happen anyway. You still have not addressed the issue of physical death or spiritual death in the creation account. John gave you the etymology of the word for death used in Genesis and it says nothing about spiritually parted. ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 1:21 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Hi Mike, Don't reply if you don't want to, but you are making so many contortions to fit what you believe into what was actually said, that I'm surprised you can type. Where does it say that before the fall death was not planned? Where does it say "they would know good and evil"? It says:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die KJV God does not say that they will know good and evil...he says that when they eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they will die ...be killed ...be put to death ...be executed (see post 17) ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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The biggest problem with trusting "your interpretation" Mike, is you are trying to interpret text that is not ambiguous at all. You aren't interpreting, you're adding to. ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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do you agree it does in no way (genesis) suggests God is satan? If I were going to write a book to try and trick someone, I sure as heck wouldn't say so in the book.
Where does it say the serpant is with God or good, did not God punish the serpant for it's evil? are you saying the bible is suggestin the serpant is righteouss and above God? I don't think any one with common sense thinks that. If someone exposed my trickery I wouldn't want them with me either. I might punish the one exposing me though. You have yet to explain how the serpent telling the truth makes him evil. If you mother lied to you about something very important for many years and your aunt finally told you the truth, does that make your aunt evil? ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 10:49 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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How many times do I have to say 'I could be wrong' Mike, I appreciate the fact that you say "I could be wrong" Most people on this forum admit that same thing. The difference being that they usually end that sentence with "...but here are the reasons why I don't think so." They then go on to bring up evidence for their way of thinking. You make it seem like you end the sentence with "...but I'm not" The only things you bring up to support your way of thinking are not even stated in the Bible. ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 10:49 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Re: God lied?
Theologian63, Obviously you have not read this entire thread, or you would see that I, and many others, have given plenty of evidence. So, if you are looking for an INTELLIGENT response, then maybe you should back up your thought with some evidense. But please do not bother if you are not going to read the entire thread first, as your issues have been addressed numerous times. And, personally, for this thread, I don't care what the author of Romans believed. I have quoted Genesis exactly and there is nothing to support your claims. And I would hate for you to be in my shoes also...it would be quite crowded. ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by Theologian63, posted 07-24-2003 2:03 PM | | Theologian63 has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 87 of 307 (47334)
07-24-2003 5:36 PM
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It always amazes me that literalists insist that they take the Bible literally as it is the word of God. When someone else quotes scripture literally, and they see that it does not actually say what they think it does, they bend over backwards to "interpret" it. ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Hi Mike,
So I think personally, we can logically say that the tree of life was for the everlasting life of Adam and Eve. But as God did not lie, he now intended that man return to the dust he came from and die! So can you deny these words exist in Genesis? Actually Mike, that is not necessarily a logical assumption. A & E obviously hadn't eaten of the tree of life, otherwise god wouldn't be so worried that they would do so. So the only logical argument that can be made concerning its presence is that at that time they were still going to die in the manner of all life. If the reason for the tree of life was some future intension of god for A & E, then the question becomes "Why was it a future intension, why didn't he just make them immortal from the beginning? Can you deny that these words exist in Genesis, "..for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"? ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Also Eve admitts the serpant "beguiled her"
beguile - charm or convince in a deceptive way. So the evidence IS there! All that shows is that Eve was backpedeling furiously, trying to place the blame on someone else, just as Adam did to her. ------------------ Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
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