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Author Topic:   The boasts of atheists (Atheist self-deception)
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 304 (330005)
07-09-2006 12:44 AM


These boasts--I have run across a lot of them and can provide quotes if you like--just will not do.

However, it is necessary that we make a distinction. The reason the atheists boast is to show that they can be happy and can be moral without God. Very understandable.

But we have to realize what is being said here. Yes, one can be happy and one can be moral, but one will also go to one's long home.

It will be, in a hundred years, as if you never existed. You are of no more significance than a roach crawling across the floor.

So one must understand that fact thoroughly before one speaks of "happiness" and "exemplary moral character" and the "wonder of life."

Except in a practical sense, it will not do to speak of such things as happiness and morality. If one is an atheist one should never speak this way. One should say, "We are products of a mindless universe, accidentally produced. We will live out our lives, and have some pleasures, and grow old, and die."


"Your friends, if they can, may bury you with some distinction, and set up a monument, to let posterity see that your dust lies under such a stone; and when that is done, all is done. Your place is filled up by another, the world is just in the same state it was, you are blotted out of its sight, and as much forgotten by the world as if you had never belonged to it."--William Law
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AdminFaith
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 304 (330006)
07-09-2006 12:44 AM


Post moved here (Coffee House) from PNT thread "The boasts of atheists .

Admin Faith.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Take comments and responses to moderator messages here:
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  • sidelined
    Inactive Member


    Message 3 of 304 (330024)
    07-09-2006 3:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 12:44 AM


    robinrohan
    These boasts--I have run across a lot of them and can provide quotes if you like--just will not do.

    I will ask you to kindly provide these quotes if you will.

    However, it is necessary that we make a distinction. The reason the atheists boast is to show that they can be happy and can be moral without God. Very understandable.

    Without a specific quote to go by I do not think I can even agree that a boast is being made so I will reserve comment.

    But we have to realize what is being said here. Yes, one can be happy and one can be moral, but one will also go to one's long home.

    It will be, in a hundred years, as if you never existed. You are of no more significance than a roach crawling across the floor.

    So we are mortal and will one day be non-existant, insignificant except to family and friends and memories only. I understand this quite well. I have come close a couple times myself to dying as a result of experiencing life. Is there something I have missed that you could explain further?

    So one must understand that fact thoroughly before one speaks of "happiness" and "exemplary moral character" and the "wonder of life."

    That we are mortal and bound for oblivion only makes the case for happiness and moral conduct of greater import though it does not mean that you need be happy nor act with morally upstanding conduct. This only makes it a sufficient reason and not a necessary one.

    Except in a practical sense, it will not do to speak of such things as happiness and morality. If one is an atheist one should never speak this way. One should say, "We are products of a mindless universe, accidentally produced. We will live out our lives, and have some pleasures, and grow old, and die."

    I do not understand how the condition of a mortal life in a universe without purpose requires that happiness nor morality be unattainable.
    Could you please explain why you find this to be an impossibility?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 07-09-2006 12:44 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

    Brian
    Member (Idle past 3132 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 4 of 304 (330034)
    07-09-2006 6:51 AM


    What world do you live in?
    I am surprised this even made it into the Coffee House!

    :laugh:

    These boasts--I have run across a lot of them and can provide quotes if you like--just will not do.

    I'd also like some quotes when you have the time please.

    However, it is necessary that we make a distinction. The reason the atheists boast is to show that they can be happy and can be moral without God. Very understandable.

    As an atheist, I don't even think about God. My morality and my happiness are not the result of my atheism.

    You would probably be better to sit and ponder over why atheists are much more moral than theists. I mean, we do good deeds because we love our fellow humans and we feel for them, we understand and sympathise a lot of the time with their plights. But, take someone such as a Christian, they only do good deeds because they want a reward of the big guy with the beard when they die.

    But we have to realize what is being said here. Yes, one can be happy and one can be moral, but one will also go to one's long home.

    And what is one's long home? Where is it and can we examine it?

    It will be, in a hundred years, as if you never existed. You are of no more significance than a roach crawling across the floor.

    And what is wrong with this? It is just a fact of life. It is a fact of life than many are scared of, so they have to invent their wee gods to give them hope that there is something else. Pretty sad really.

    So one must understand that fact thoroughly before one speaks of "happiness" and "exemplary moral character" and the "wonder of life."

    What 'fact' are you talking about?

    One should say, "We are products of a mindless universe, accidentally produced. We will live out our lives, and have some pleasures, and grow old, and die."

    Why should we say these things, just because you say so?

    Why waste away the years depressing yourself about your brief existence, why waste your life away kissing the ass of an imaginary Supreme Being?

    There is nothing wrong with an atheist being happy and moral, we just don't worry about getting the reward at the end of time. So we grow old and die, shit happens, but at least we have lived.

    Brian.

    Edited by Brian, : added bold formatting


    Replies to this message:
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    Michael
    Member (Idle past 2811 days)
    Posts: 199
    From: USA
    Joined: 05-14-2005


    Message 5 of 304 (330039)
    07-09-2006 7:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 12:44 AM


    not again
    It will be, in a hundred years, as if you never existed. You are of no more significance than a roach crawling across the floor.

    This looks as though it is yet another thread on nihilism.

    Nihilists can be so tedious. I can provide quotes if you like.

    This just will not do.

    (*wink*)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 07-09-2006 12:44 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

    kongstad
    Member (Idle past 1043 days)
    Posts: 175
    From: Copenhagen, Denmark
    Joined: 02-24-2004


    Message 6 of 304 (330049)
    07-09-2006 10:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 12:44 AM


    Yes - eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow you shall die.

    Grow up please


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 07-09-2006 12:44 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 1630 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 7 of 304 (330054)
    07-09-2006 10:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 12:44 AM


    Boasts or Testimony
    quote:
    However, it is necessary that we make a distinction. The reason the atheists boast is to show that they can be happy and can be moral without God. Very understandable.
    I've seen these types of responses in various threads and they don't appear to be unsolicited boasts, they appear to be testimony to refute assertions or comments that have been made concerning morality or atheists.

    BTW, when you provide the quotes, please also provide the question or statement that precipitated the response.

    quote:
    Except in a practical sense, it will not do to speak of such things as happiness and morality. If one is an atheist one should never speak this way. One should say, "We are products of a mindless universe, accidentally produced. We will live out our lives, and have some pleasures, and grow old, and die."
    Why? People, regardless of their belief system or lack thereof, know that they live out their lives, have some good times and bad times, and if they are fortunate they grow old and die. So what is your point?

    I seriously doubt that the response you dictate would be a correct response to the questions or statements that precipitated the "boasts" that you find annoying.


    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
    This message is a reply to:
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    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5585
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005


    Message 8 of 304 (330059)
    07-09-2006 10:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 12:44 AM


    robin is boasting about his nihilism
    These boasts--I have run across a lot of them and can provide quotes if you like--just will not do.

    It isn't even clear that these "boasts" were intended as boasts. They look to me to be cases of people using themselves as examples (at risk of invasion of their privacy), to counter your own claims.

    This appears to be the n-th of your threads about nihilism, where n is something like 4 or 5 (or greater). What could be more boastful than starting that many threads about your own beliefs?


    This message is a reply to:
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    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4826
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 9 of 304 (330061)
    07-09-2006 10:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
    07-09-2006 6:51 AM


    Re: What world do you live in?
    Brian writes:

    But, take someone such as a Christian, they only do good deeds because they want a reward of the big guy with the beard when they die.

    That statement portrays a false image of Christianity and is in fact the antithesis of what Christianity is about. If Christians are doing good deeds in anticipation of reward rather than for the love of the goodness inherent in the deed, then I would suggest that the deed has no eternal value whatsoever.

    OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
    AdminPD

    Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning


    Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
    This message is a reply to:
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30997
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 4.2


    Message 10 of 304 (330068)
    07-09-2006 11:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 12:44 AM


    just will not do.
    Yes, one can be happy and one can be moral, but one will also go to one's long home.

    said Cocky Robin to the white clad back sitting at the bench.

    "True," said Dr. Salk, "but let me finish this vaccine before I dodder off."

    It will be, in a hundred years, as if you never existed. You are of no more significance than a roach crawling across the floor.

    "True," said Vincent, "but do you think a nice bouillabaisse would do for dinner?"

    So one must understand that fact thoroughly before one speaks of "happiness" and "exemplary moral character" and the "wonder of life."

    "True," said the children, "and I wonder how high the sky really is?"

    Except in a practical sense, it will not do to speak of such things as happiness and morality.

    "True," said the teacher, "so let us all be impractical instead."

    Edited by jar, : fix link


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 07-09-2006 12:44 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

    Discreet Label
    Member (Idle past 3237 days)
    Posts: 272
    Joined: 11-17-2005


    Message 11 of 304 (330087)
    07-09-2006 1:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 12:44 AM


    "Your friends, if they can, may bury you with some distinction, and set up a monument, to let posterity see that your dust lies under such a stone; and when that is done, all is done. Your place is filled up by another, the world is just in the same state it was, you are blotted out of its sight, and as much forgotten by the world as if you had never belonged to it."--William Law

    I would disagree entirely with that statement, for it can be construed that Law is talking solely upon only the physical being of a person. Sure another can physically take your place. But as a person has lived, it is such a person that has changed and influenced individual lives. A shining hollywood example might be the classic Its a Wonderful Life.

    Flawed because it assumes that another person it did not present the possibility into the role and person the Jimmy Stewart character was (after he wished he didn't exist). But by the same token it is possibly apt if describing a situation in which someone else did not grow to take the kind of social position he held within the community.

    Or the quote could be addressing everything I pointed out in that, its true nothing would change because for any person who holds a role in community if they were to die or to be non-existant, another person within the community would step up and fill the place. Even then that is flawed, because individually each and every person will take and perform a social role in a different manner. If it were true, all kings would be the same the czars would of been on equal footing as the biritish monarchs, or the british monarchs would have been the same for thousands of years, yet there is only one british monarch that has ever been called the Great, Alfred the Great.


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    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12445
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 12 of 304 (330091)
    07-09-2006 2:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 12:44 AM


    Nihilism is depressing
    Im not sure which annoys me more:
    1) Fundamentalists spouting off religious rhetoric which is never provable and which basically says to me that I am less than they are unless I follow their trail.

    2) Smug militant atheists who love to use the logical fallacies and who attempt to show me how illogical my beliefs are..suggesting that were I as smart as they, I would be content.

    OR.....

    3) Robin, the nihilist, who has a depressing quote at the end of his message and who seems to suggest that nothing in life matters beyond the grave so get drunk and write plays and entertain people for awhile. (but I can't get too mad at you Robin, for you have entertained me before in the past. Its just that your outlook is so damn depressing!) I refuse to believe any of it! It much better to believe that God exists, loves me, and will mercifully guide me to a better destiny.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 07-09-2006 12:44 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 13 of 304 (330106)
    07-09-2006 3:00 PM


    Get a load of this
    The claim that morality cannot exist without belief in an archaic mythology is simply false. By my own existence as an atheist and a man of exemplary moral character, my existence (as well as the vast number of moral atheists out there) I disprove the first premise. Thus, the entire argument is invalid.

    Doesn't it make you want to puke?

    Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


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    Discreet Label
    Member (Idle past 3237 days)
    Posts: 272
    Joined: 11-17-2005


    Message 14 of 304 (330107)
    07-09-2006 3:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 3:00 PM


    Re: Get a load of this
    Could you be more specific about, what making anyone wanting to puke? Are you asking does the ability for a single person being an athesist and deciding what is moral and immoral make you puke? Or is it the confidence that someone speaks of their own moral uprightness make you puke?

    In either case, what exactly makes you puke?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by robinrohan, posted 07-09-2006 3:00 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12445
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 15 of 304 (330108)
    07-09-2006 3:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by robinrohan
    07-09-2006 3:00 PM


    Throwin up....signs of the times
    RR writes:

    Doesn't it make you want to puke?

    Now, Robin! You started this thread so you need to play with the other children nicely!

    RR writes:

    It will be, in a hundred years, as if you never existed. You are of no more significance than a roach crawling across the floor.

    Two quotes: :)

    1)

    NIV writes:

    Matt 24:35-Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.(...) John 14:18-19-- Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

    Optimistic, if we behave and live to our best!

    or...

    enotes.com writes:

    Macbeth is on the castle walls, under siege by his enemies. A cry is heard from within the castle, and Macbeth learns that his wife has killed herself. There was a time when such a message would have chilled his heart, but at this point he is surprisingly stoic and accepting, resigned to the barren futility of life. He goes on to give one of the most famous Shakespearean speeches that begins with "Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow," and continues "creeps in this petty pace from day to day to the last syllable of recorded time, and all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more." Macbeth has found his own "way to dusty death" through greed and superstition, and will soon pay the ultimate price.~~--From Macbeth (V, v, 19)

    It matters what you place your hopes in, Robin.

    add by edit:

    An atheist may place their hopes in their own morality...and be a bit boastful about it in some cases...because NOW is all that is real.
    We suely can forgive them for being human, can't we?

    Edited by Phat, : add by edit


    “There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

    This message is a reply to:
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