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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 331 of 354 (822294)
10-22-2017 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by ringo
02-13-2013 11:27 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
ringo writes:

I think it's pretty clear that the "choice" to be altruistic is biological and social, not religious. Almost every religion advocates the same altruism.

OK, getting back to one of our side debates about beliefs versus actions. Logic says that we choose our beliefs and also our actions. If a guy does the right (altruistic, assumedly) actions yet professes no belief, will the guy be judged on his choice of belief? If so, and if the individual really has no free will in the matter, who is responsible for the judgment?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 02-13-2013 11:27 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2017 10:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 335 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 2:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5233
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 332 of 354 (822295)
10-22-2017 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Phat
10-22-2017 9:54 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

Logic says that we choose our beliefs and also our actions.

Logic says nothing of the kind.

Neither you nor, nor I nor Amin, nor Elizah, nor Chang chose their beliefs - we were all born into them. And our actions are conditioned by our predispositions, upbringing and circumstances. You always start from the wrong premise.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 333 of 354 (822296)
10-22-2017 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by Phat
10-22-2017 9:39 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

Can the individual be blamed for denying God? Being angry at God? Ignoring belief altogether? Or is the individual still responsible for their own behavior regardless where the behavior originated from?

There is no answer to those questions until you first define the God in question.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 334 of 354 (822305)
10-22-2017 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
10-22-2017 12:16 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

Likely the first being in the universe to refuse to call Jesus Lord was satan. Why follow that model?


Because Jesus Himself said that calling Him "Lord" doesn't cut it.
quote:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 12:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 335 of 354 (822307)
10-22-2017 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Phat
10-22-2017 9:54 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

OK, getting back to one of our side debates about beliefs versus actions.


Our debate is about empty beliefs versus actions. I believe in actions as strongly as you believe in some guy rising from the dead. The difference is that your belief has no meaning.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 336 of 354 (822310)
10-22-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Phat
10-22-2017 12:10 AM


Re: Bringing Henry Ford Into This
Phat writes:

Thus my question. Is Red Necessary? Is Green Necessary? Is White Necessary?


You're not going back far enough: Is a car necessary at all? What does "necessary" mean?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 12:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 3:46 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 337 of 354 (822311)
10-22-2017 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by ringo
10-22-2017 3:21 PM


Re: Bringing Henry Ford Into This
Having the option of a car gives a man free will to not have to walk, as does a bicycle, as does a skateboard. Necessity is the mother of all inventions. Evil must have been a necessary invention. God only knows why. Some say that evil does not always appear to be evil. All that glitters isn't gold, however. I'm not sure why God invented/allowed evil. My argument, however, is that the reason was not to be petty, vindictive, or even clueless. Perhaps our question should be why was evil necessary? Some things that are bad for us are not cursed. Do we usually curse the one who invented alcohol, for example?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 3:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 3:53 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 338 of 354 (822312)
10-22-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Phat
10-22-2017 3:46 PM


Re: Bringing Henry Ford Into This
Phat writes:

Do we usually curse the one who invented alcohol, for example?


God invented alcohol. What necessity was its mother?

Evil "must have been" a necessary invention because you need it to make your theology work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 3:46 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 8:54 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 339 of 354 (822329)
10-23-2017 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by ringo
10-22-2017 3:53 PM


The Mother Of All Bums
ringo writes:

Evil "must have been" a necessary invention because you need it to make your theology work.

All I know is that evil is an observable daily fact.

I'm not one to say that its necessary, yet see that it is clearly ubiquitous.

I believe in actions as strongly as you believe in some guy rising from the dead. The difference is that your belief has no meaning.
GDR seems to think that actions need the proper motivation.
GDR,in another thread writes:

I do agree with you that it isn't what we give intellectual assent to that makes us right with God. You seem to think that ultimately it is about the lives we live that matters. I agree with that to a point but I don't think that it is so much about what we actually do that matters but our motivation for what we do.

A simple example is that when we donate our time or financial resources to others less fortunate, but if it is really about the desire to be well thought of by our peers, it isn't the same as doing it just because we want to do the right thing regardless of any recognition. It is about choosing between loving selfishly and loving unselfishly. It is about the heart.

I can see his point. If I simply give spare change to the creative homeless guy spinning his sign on the corner, and if i am doing it to alleviate my conscience, perhaps I am not doing enough.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 3:53 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 341 by ringo, posted 10-23-2017 11:39 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 340 of 354 (822333)
10-23-2017 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Phat
10-23-2017 8:54 AM


Re: The Mother Of All Bums
Phat writes:

I can see his point. If I simply give spare change to the creative homeless guy spinning his sign on the corner, and if i am doing it to alleviate my conscience, perhaps I am not doing enough.

The position you mention is the "What's in it for me" theology. For the kid you kneel down to talk to it is an acknowledgement that you are really listening and paying attention TO THEM. Whether it makes you feel good or whether you are really wondering if you are going to be able to get back up doesn't enter into what the kid experiences.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 8:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 341 of 354 (822340)
10-23-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Phat
10-23-2017 8:54 AM


Re: The Mother Of All Bums
Phat writes:

If I simply give spare change to the creative homeless guy spinning his sign on the corner, and if i am doing it to alleviate my conscience, perhaps I am not doing enough.


What does the homeless guy care about your motivation? His life or death don't depend on your motivation. If feeding him is not "enough", what is?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 8:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 11-05-2017 3:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 342 of 354 (823060)
11-05-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by ringo
10-23-2017 11:39 AM


Does God care about our motives?
jar writes:

Whether it makes you feel good or whether you are really wondering if you are going to be able to get back up doesn't enter into what the kid experiences.

In other words, what you are emphasizing is "Whats in it for THEM"?

ringo writes:

What does the homeless guy care about your motivation? His life or death don't depend on your motivation. If feeding him is not "enough", what is?

I can't feed all of them. You both have convicted me somewhat, however. I tend to be selfish. Perhaps if I did unto others the way that I EXPECT God to DO unto ME, I would find the answer.

Sometimes at our store, we ask for donations for Turkey Bucks...a charity to feed the homeless during the holidays. Some people, when asked, claim that it is THEY who are needy and that somebody should help THEM.

Of course, when big business asks for donations, what happens is that they donate the total sum, match it 50%, and get a 30+% tax write-off on it all.

So in conclusion, I believe that God watches our intentions and motivations and expects us to be less selfish. Hopefully, I will someday receive the message and apply it.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by ringo, posted 10-23-2017 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by ringo, posted 11-06-2017 11:34 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 343 of 354 (823126)
11-06-2017 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
11-05-2017 3:27 PM


Re: Does God care about our motives?
Phat writes:

I can't feed all of them.


Jesus said you should sell what you have and give to the poor. He didn't say you should go into debt trying to feed all of them. He didn't say you should neglect your own children to feed the poor. It's your decision how much you do to help the poor. The only option that isn't on the table is zero.

Phat writes:

Perhaps if I did unto others the way that I EXPECT God to DO unto ME, I would find the answer.


Forget God. Just do what the bumper sticker says, "Do unto others as you would expect THEM to do unto you."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 11-05-2017 3:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 11-06-2017 3:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 344 of 354 (823161)
11-06-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by ringo
11-06-2017 11:34 AM


Re: Does God care about our motives?
ringo writes:

Forget God. Just do what the bumper sticker says, "Do unto others as you would expect THEM to do unto you."

Im not sure what I expect anymore. Compulsive gamblers are noted for their sense of entitlement, and I have felt this before...but I never ask anyone for help except God (or my family) Were I homeless, I would expect the government to help me somehow...which is everyone, I suppose. But I never would expect handouts from any strangers.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by ringo, posted 11-06-2017 11:34 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by ringo, posted 11-08-2017 2:09 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 345 of 354 (823274)
11-08-2017 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Phat
11-06-2017 3:57 PM


Re: Does God care about our motives?
Phat writes:

But I never would expect handouts from any strangers.


What do you think the Golden Rule means?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 11-06-2017 3:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by jar, posted 11-08-2017 2:41 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 347 by Phat, posted 11-08-2017 3:49 PM ringo has responded

  
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