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Author Topic:   The Obama Nation
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3538
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 121 of 171 (479062)
08-24-2008 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Buzsaw
08-23-2008 5:17 PM


Re: Why the Russian revolution of 1917
Jaderis largely took the load off me, but I'll make a few comments.

1. The greedy are more apt to be those who want more than they deserve or have earned by legitimate enterprise and work.

I think there is no shortage of wealthy individuals who are paid far in excess of what they earned. Perhaps the most prominent and extreme example is a corporate CEO who blotches the management of the company, gets canned, and gets a parting gift of multiple millions of dollars. Now there is a leach of society.

How much can an individual actually EARN in a year? And what is the real point of an income that grossly exceeds your needs?

2-4

What the government and people of other countries are doing or not doing to help the less fortunate is irrelevant. Should one be a stingy jerk just because others are? I don't think so.

5. Whatever government subsidizes, increases. Subsidized milk = more milk. Subsidized tobacco = more tobacco. Subsidize poverty = more poverty.

I think this is what they call a non-sequitur. Certainly giving people in poverty resources (money or other) is not going to make them poorer. And something like a new Works Progress Administration can give the disadvantaged employment and also do something to help maintain the countries infrastructure.

Nobody starved. Neighbor helped neighbor.

Damn - Sounds like communism to me.

Moose

ps. See the John Kenneth Galbraith quote in the "signature" below.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Changed "WPE" to "WPA".

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Add link and delete a partial sentence containing the previous edit.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

"Nixon was a professional politician, and I despised everything he stood for — but if he were running for president this year against the evil Bush-Cheney gang, I would happily vote for him." - Hunter S. Thompson

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 08-23-2008 5:17 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3032 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 122 of 171 (479074)
08-24-2008 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Rrhain
08-23-2008 8:43 PM


Investment without spending?
Rrhain writes:

Investing in a business is required, but it is inefficient: If the business fails, that money that was invested didn't contribute to the economy.


Yes it did. It bought materials and services.

That's why the Bush tax cuts haven't done anything to help the economy but actually made things worse: It didn't go to the people who would consume but rather to the people who would invest.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Do you really want to say that investors are not consumers?

I'm afraid your economic arugment is simplistic and unconvincing. Not surprising, though.

—HM


Shut up he explained. —Ring Lardner
This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Rrhain, posted 08-23-2008 8:43 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 171 (571245)
07-30-2010 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by subbie
08-22-2008 10:13 PM


Re: Point by point refutation
Perhaps it would be interesting for some of our members to revisit this old pre-election thread, one of which I attempted to disuade the vote to go to Barrak Hussain Obama.

The following is an example of some things which were addressed in this thread. So much of which was warned of has come to fruition, such as the government takeover of private business, natural resources and production of goods.

subbie writes:

social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.

I'm quite certain Obama hasn't called for the nationalization of any businesses or industries, nor has he called for the abolition of private ownership of property, natural resources, or the means of production of goods. He hasn't suggested that everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by subbie, posted 08-22-2008 10:13 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by subbie, posted 07-30-2010 10:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 125 by jar, posted 07-30-2010 10:30 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 129 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2010 2:00 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 130 by Modulous, posted 07-31-2010 8:53 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 137 by Taz, posted 07-31-2010 8:44 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 124 of 171 (571246)
07-30-2010 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
07-30-2010 10:26 PM


Re: Point by point refutation
All you have to do is present any evidence that he's done those things.

I won't hold my breath. Your track record, evidence wise, shows you seldom have any.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2010 10:26 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 125 of 171 (571247)
07-30-2010 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
07-30-2010 10:26 PM


Re: Point by point refutation
Buz writes:

The following is an example of some things which were addressed in this thread. So much of which was warned of has come to fruition, such as the government takeover of private business, natural resources and production of goods.

I imagine you can present evidence of where the Obama Administration has taken over a private business, natural resources and the production of goods.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2010 10:26 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by subbie, posted 07-30-2010 10:39 PM jar has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 239 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 126 of 171 (571250)
07-30-2010 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
07-30-2010 10:30 PM


Re: Point by point refutation
I imagine you can present evidence of where the Obama Administration has taken over a private business, natural resources and the production of goods.

I bow to the breadth of your ability to imagine. I was unable to conceive of such a possibility.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 07-30-2010 10:30 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 127 of 171 (571253)
07-30-2010 10:50 PM


Bailouts
Let's look at real examples of Bailouts and takeovers.

In 1970 & 1971 the Government bailed out Penn Central Railroad and Lockheed. President-Nixon

In 1974 the Government bailed out Franklin National Bank. President-Ford.

In 1975 the Government bailed out New York City. President-Ford.

In 1980 Chrysler was bailed out. President-Carter.

In 1984 the Government bailed out Continental Illinois National Bank and Trust Company. President-Reagan

In 1989 the Savings and Loan industry got bailed out. President-GHW Bush.

In 2001 the Airline Industry was bailed out. President-GW Bush.

2007-8 was a busy year for Government bailouts, Bear Sterns, AIG, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, the Auto Industry, CitiGroup, Troubled Assets Relief Program. President-GW Bush

In 2009 Bank of America got bailed out. President-Obama.

Is there a pattern here?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 171 (571267)
07-31-2010 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Buzsaw
08-23-2008 5:17 PM


Re: Why the Russian revolution of 1917
I've said the above to say that the aspirations of Obama and the Democratic Party to redistribute the earnings of the affluent to the poor, so many who are non-productive, will change America forever, as the man promises.

The primary source of wealth redistribution in America, currently, is one of redistribution from the poor and middle class to the rich. While labor productivity has risen almost 50% in the past four decades, wages for all but the top 3% of Americans, adjusted for inflation, have remained stable.

That means that essentially all of the productivity gains of the American worker since 1970 have been redistributed to the very wealthy, whose productivity has not increased by any measurable extent.

I was born in Nebraska in 1935 in the midst of both severe drout and depression. Nobody starved.

It's widely agreed on by sociologists that as many as 200,000 people may have died as a result of privation and malnutrition during the Great Depression.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 08-23-2008 5:17 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 129 of 171 (571272)
07-31-2010 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
07-30-2010 10:26 PM


Re: Point by point refutation
So much of which was warned of has come to fruition, such as the government takeover of private business, natural resources and production of goods.

No it hasn't.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. --- Matthew 7:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2010 10:26 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 130 of 171 (571290)
07-31-2010 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
07-30-2010 10:26 PM


revisiting this old pre-election thread
You compared Hitler and Obama.

Hitler, within a month of gaining political power blamed a national crisis on communists.

A month later he, at gunpoint, declared himself dictator.

Within 6 months he declared all other political parties illegal and engaged in a lethal political purge.

Obama? Nothing really comparable.

None of his evil Muslim ties have come to light.
America remains a major capitalist country.
He's not shown any particular sympathies towards terrorists.

Your fears seem to have come to nothing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 07-30-2010 10:26 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2320
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 131 of 171 (571391)
07-31-2010 2:50 PM


The Predictions of Mystic Buz
Hi folks. Since the topic has come up, this seems like as good a time as any to take a look at the amazing predictions of Mystic Buz. Behold! From Expectations For The New Obama Democrat Government;

Buzsaw writes:

What can we expect to eventually become reality according to the agenda of the new far left Obama and Congress:

1. Forced unionism.
2. Socialized medicine.
3. Weaker smaller military.
4. Paramilitary civilian government controlled services required upon every young person.
5. So called (miss called) Fairness Doctrine essentially eliminating right wing talk shows in the media, highly expanding what is regarded as hate speech.
6. Increased Jihadist terrorism by terrorists who supported the Obama presidency.
7. Further undermining of the sovereignty of Israel.
8. Increased energy costs.
9. Excessive high coal standards which will essentially put the coal mines out of business.
10. Expansion of the EPA's influence to the point of more dependence of foreign energy.
11. Severe depression as the result of regulation and high taxes on business and the well to do who provide the jobs as they choose to close up rather than to comply.
12. Expansion of regulations on businesses.
13. Wider open boarders and expansion of rights etc to illegal aliens.
14. Highly expansion of UN powers over nations and diminishment of sovereignty of nations.
15. Billions of American $$ more committed to UN welfare for third world nations, including oppressive governments.
16. Reduction of freedom of religion via the Fairness Doctrine and other government regulations.
17. Totally leftist Supreme Court and circuit courts etc which essentially permanently embeds America into socialism and the leftist agenda relative to all aspects of life.
18. Expansion of anti-gun laws.
19. Phenominal expansion of Federal government power/control and diminishment of state and local government control.

IN SHORT, THE END OF THE AMERICAN DREAM AND THE AMERICAN WAY.

YES, NATION OF ISLAM'S, JEHADIST'S, COMMUNIST PARTY'S, FORCED UNIONISM'S, UN'S, CHAVEZ'S CANDIDATE AND THE CANDIDATE OF MOST OF AMERICA'S OTHER ENEMIES, BARRACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, "WILL CHANGE AMERICA," AS PROMISED.

Mmm. What say Buz? How do you think these are holding up? Is the American Dream over yet?

Mutate and Survive.


Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2010 7:02 PM Granny Magda has responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 171 (571453)
07-31-2010 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Granny Magda
07-31-2010 2:50 PM


Re: Buzsaw Predictions/1908
1. Forced Unionism
2. Socialized Medicine
3. Undermine Military One of the first things he did after taking office was to stop the production of what was to be the worlds most effective strategic bomber; all this while Russia's Putin pledges to advance their strategic bomber program.
4. Paramilitary
The president has repeatedly alluded to this public service obligation of America's youth. There are presently around 40 paramilitary Muslim camps in the US in arms training.
5. Obama's version of fairness doctrine While publically opposing the old Fairness Doctrine, his Czarist regime has powerful czars all undermining representive government in every area of government so as to make empower the executive branch as supreme.

" Cass Sunstein is one of Barack Obama's close confidantes. He is I believe the most dangerous man in America. Nobody sees him coming. He is the head now of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, information and regulatory affairs. He oversees the policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs."

It's taken me 2 hours to research and verify these five. That's all I have time for at this time. We will go with these for now. Having read over the list, I see them all pretty much on track. Perhaps who disagrees may cite particular questionable ones.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Granny Magda, posted 07-31-2010 2:50 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by crashfrog, posted 07-31-2010 7:06 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 134 by jar, posted 07-31-2010 7:16 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 135 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2010 7:32 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 136 by Granny Magda, posted 07-31-2010 8:35 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 146 by DrJones*, posted 08-01-2010 4:27 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 171 (571455)
07-31-2010 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Buzsaw
07-31-2010 7:02 PM


Re: Buzsaw Predictions/1908
Can you explain how the ACA represents "socialized medicine"? Please be specific. Since when is private health insurance "socialism"?

One of the first things he did after taking office was to stop the production of what was to be the worlds most effective strategic bomber

We already had the world's most effective strategic bomber. Our strategic bombing capacities were so far ahead of anyone else's we haven't had to use them in two decades. What could possibly be the point of spending all that money on even better strategic bombing capability? I thought you were concerned about the deficit.

We will go with these for now.

It's too bad you couldn't present anything but lies and paranoia.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2010 7:02 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 134 of 171 (571457)
07-31-2010 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Buzsaw
07-31-2010 7:02 PM


Re: Buzsaw Predictions/1908
You realize that there is NOTHING but innuendo in any of your so called verified sources don't you?

How about trying to find ONE fact.

Also, presenting a quote from the nut job Beck even if you don't provide the attribution is still just the rantings of a nut job.

Buz writes:

The following is an example of some things which were addressed in this thread. So much of which was warned of has come to fruition, such as the government takeover of private business, natural resources and production of goods.

I imagine you can present evidence of where the Obama Administration has taken over a private business, natural resources and the production of goods.

Still waiting for you to provide evidence that the Obama Administration has taken over a private business, natural resources and the production of goods.

Will this just be another example of you providing nothing but editorial, innuendo and nut job baseless assertions?

Edited by jar, : get prior quote from Buz that he seems to want to ignore.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2010 7:02 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 135 of 171 (571458)
07-31-2010 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Buzsaw
07-31-2010 7:02 PM


Re: Buzsaw Predictions/1908
1. Forced Unionism

A scaremongering article about something that hasn't actually happened.

2. Socialized Medicine

A lie. That isn't socialized medicine. I guess that's why you had to get your misinformation off a site that actually boasts itself to be unfair and imbalanced.

3. Undermine Military

Obama has of course increased military spending.

New spending blueprints unveiled at the Pentagon would push the U.S. military's budget to $708 billion next year, the most in inflation-adjusted dollars since World War II.

Funny way to undermine the military.

One of the first things he did after taking office was to stop the production of what was to be the worlds most effective strategic bomber

This would be easier to refute if you bothered to say what the heck you were talking about. Until then:

The administration's plans also call for more spending on high-tech weapons the military says it needs for potential future wars. Those include:

* The F-35, the military's largest aircraft development program ever
* Virginia-class attack submarines for the Navy
* Land- and sea-based missile defense and cyberwarfare systems
* A new long-range bomber long sought by the Air Force

4. Paramilitary
The president has repeatedly alluded to this public service obligation of America's youth.

This is of course a lie, which is why neither you nor the hysterical moron who wrote this article can quote him as doing so.

I also notice that the President has not in fact set up any paramilitary organizations.

There are presently around 40 paramilitary Muslim camps in the US in arms training.

And since it was James Madison and not President Obama who wrote the Second Amendment, this has nothing to do with Obama, does it?

5. Obama's version of fairness doctrine While publically opposing the old Fairness Doctrine, his Czarist regime has powerful czars all undermining representive government in every area of government so as to make empower the executive branch as supreme.

Did you notice that this gibberish, while admittedly ridiculous, paranoid, and retarded, has nothing else in common with your gibberish about the so-called "Fairness Doctrine"?

You will also notice that Obama has not in fact imposed the "Fairness Doctrine", which he opposes.

" Cass Sunstein is one of Barack Obama's close confidantes. He is I believe the most dangerous man in America. Nobody sees him coming. He is the head now of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, information and regulatory affairs. He oversees the policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs."

That doesn't sound very dangerous. Tell us, what, in your opinion, makes him more "dangerous" than previous holders of the same office, such as James C. Miller III, Christopher DeMuth, Wendy Lee Gramm, John Spotila, Sally Katzen, Susan Dudley, and John Graham? (Note that lunatics frothing about how he is a "czar" doesn't actually make him dangerous, it just makes idiots think he's dangerous.)

It's taken me 2 hours to research and verify these five.

To call this pathetic mishmash "research" is generous; to call it "verification" is frankly false.

I don't see why it took you two hours to dredge up some sort of affirmation for your fantasies --- paranoid whackjobs aren't that hard to find on the internet.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Buzsaw, posted 07-31-2010 7:02 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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