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Author Topic:   Paul Harvey's take on prayer in public/Xmas (In general, a "freedom of speech" topic)
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 780 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 46 of 165 (173775)
01-04-2005 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Asgara
01-03-2005 7:35 PM


Re: Matthew 6
Hi Asgara,
I'm so accustomed to praying with other believers, that I had never questioned this practice before, but after looking it up I think it is perfectly okay.
Jesus seems to be discouraging "showing off" in prayer, but he doesn't say we must pray in solitude. In fact right after this passage he tells them how to pray and uses plural pronouns. Jesus also prayed in public as well as alone. Many instances of believers praying together are recorded in Acts.
So clearly, Jesus is not demanding that we pray in solitude only. He seems to be saying that it is the attitude that is important, not the show.
Furthermore, this doesn't really have to do with the debate about the right to pray. The reasons for better or worse are irrelevant, it is the freedom to act freely that matters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Asgara, posted 01-03-2005 7:35 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Asgara, posted 01-04-2005 6:40 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 780 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 47 of 165 (173780)
01-04-2005 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by nator
01-03-2005 11:05 PM


Barton is the founder of a group called Wallbuilders which is a radical Religious Right propaganda group that is attempting to rewrite US history.
Schraf, if you have any beef on Mr. Barton, please start a new thread and list everything. His son lives on my floor at school, and I'd love to show your list to him so that he can compare notes.
As for his book Original Intent, it is a very thick book filled mostly with copies of original documents. Even if the documents contained within represent 1% of all the original documents from that era, they are sufficient to show the strong influence of Christianty on the founders.
Article 11 states:
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."
A nation is composed of people -- a government of laws.
I completely agree that the government is not founded on the Christian Religion, but the founders were guided by the common morality at that time, which had its roots in Christianity, and the nation at that time was composed mainly of Christians, and consequently they exercised their freedom to live as desired. There is no denying this.
America was originally (and still is barely) a very Christian nation with a government that is unconcerned with religion.
Why don't we start with the original documents instead of a right wing Christian propagandists' book?
By original documents I also mean letters written by the founders that reveal their religious beliefs and intents.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by JustinC, posted 01-04-2005 3:30 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 54 by Silent H, posted 01-04-2005 5:14 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 56 by bob_gray, posted 01-05-2005 12:18 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 780 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 48 of 165 (173783)
01-04-2005 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by mikehager
01-04-2005 12:23 AM


Re: Barton
Seriously, after reading that page and seeing it's clear religious right bias, I don't see how anyone can credit this man as a source. He is clearly a huckster.
He is obviously biased, but he uses original documents to support his arguments in fact I believe he has the largest collection of original documents in the nation. There is nothing wrong with that. Neither is there anything wrong with selling a copy of the constitution. Your labeling of him as a "huckster" is unfounded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by mikehager, posted 01-04-2005 12:23 AM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by mikehager, posted 01-04-2005 2:22 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

mikehager
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 49 of 165 (173785)
01-04-2005 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Hangdawg13
01-04-2005 2:15 PM


Re: Barton
Sorry, no it isn't. His page is clearly that of a cheap huckster. Promoting yourself as an information source and then trying to charge for copies of documents that are easily and freely available is hucksterism. If you don't like the label, sorry.
How does using source documents absolve him of bias? He uses only the writings that seem to support him and ignores others that put things in a different light. That is bias and that is what Barton does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-04-2005 2:15 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-04-2005 2:30 PM mikehager has replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 780 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 50 of 165 (173787)
01-04-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by crashfrog
01-04-2005 11:03 AM


If you don't think that's worth complaining about, well, you're no true Scottsman.
Yeah! And he puts sugar on his porriage, too!
Hahahaha...
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 01-04-2005 14:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 780 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 51 of 165 (173789)
01-04-2005 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by mikehager
01-04-2005 2:22 PM


Re: Barton
Promoting yourself as an information source and then trying to charge for copies of documents that are easily and freely available is hucksterism. If you don't like the label, sorry.
He does seem to be an information source and he is obviously biased, but as long as he is not just writing pure opinion and supporting statements with original documents, there's nothing wrong with that.
I can also look up a picture of the American flag, but I may wish to pay for a real one, and the nicer a flag it is the more willing I am to pay for one. That is capitalism not hucksterism. I don't see any basis for making negative assumptions about his character.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by mikehager, posted 01-04-2005 2:22 PM mikehager has replied

Replies to this message:
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mikehager
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 52 of 165 (173791)
01-04-2005 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Hangdawg13
01-04-2005 2:30 PM


Re: Barton
If you see no reason to, then feel free not to. I see ample reason.
However, we are wandering off topic. Shall we agree to disagree and give this thread a chance to stay on track?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-04-2005 2:30 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

JustinC
Member (Idle past 4873 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 53 of 165 (173805)
01-04-2005 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Hangdawg13
01-04-2005 2:05 PM


quote:
I completely agree that the government is not founded on the Christian Religion, but the founders were guided by the common morality at that time, which had its roots in Christianity, and the nation at that time was composed mainly of Christians, and consequently they exercised their freedom to live as desired. There is no denying this.
Did the common law have its roots in Christianity? Thomas Jefferson writes:
"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.
". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
He seems to be correct about the dates, so how can Christianity be the root of common law if it wasn't introduced until 200 years after the common law was in existence? Or do you deny that the common law ws in existance before Christianity?
Just out of curiousity, what exact laws have their roots in Christianity?
As for the whole Christian Nation thing, there is obviously an equivocation of terms going on. You think it means that the majority of the population is Christians, and many of us believe it means the nation was founded on Christian principles. As for the latter, since it wasn't explicitly stated that the country was founded on Christian principles (in fact, it was the opposite), it seems the only reconciliation is to find the roots of the common law or attitudes of the time were influenced in a major way by Christian teachings. I have yet to see it, but I must admit I haven't read Barton's book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-04-2005 2:05 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 54 of 165 (173825)
01-04-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Hangdawg13
01-04-2005 2:05 PM


As for his book Original Intent, it is a very thick book filled mostly with copies of original documents.
Haven't seen his book, but let me take a guess... A bunch of local documents from before the United States were formed, many letters not from the major players in the forming of the United States, and where it does contain things from the major players it conveniently is absent the more voluminous writings against religion in government?
That's usually what I find when someone tells me to go look at this great list od "documents" which prove the US was founded on Xianity.
Since you appear to know this book well, please list the top three items. Not as a test to see if you know them or not, just because I would like to know what they are.
but the founders were guided by the common morality at that time, which had its roots in Christianity, and the nation at that time was composed mainly of Christians, and consequently they exercised their freedom to live as desired. There is no denying this.... America was originally (and still is barely) a very Christian nation with a government that is unconcerned with religion.
The big problem with this is that you are using "xian roots" to mean "evangelical Xianity" or even "mainstream Xianity". Most of the founding fathers, and all the top heavy hitters were deists. It has only a passing resemblance to the Xianity you are espousing.
I think there is no doubt that the majority population was Xian, but of various denominations, and the United States was formed to house them and many other faiths... equally.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-04-2005 2:05 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2331 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 55 of 165 (173855)
01-04-2005 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hangdawg13
01-04-2005 1:40 PM


Re: Matthew 6
Hi HD, thank you for your reply.
Right after this passage is the Lord's Prayer which, yes, uses plural pronouns.
My main reason for posting this passage was the fact that some are arguing the right for public employees or public institutions to either loudly broadcast their prayers in an area not solely devoted to those of their belief system or to (even if unintentionally) use their position of authority to get children to follow their lead in belief.
I found it humorous that those professing a belief in Jesus would argue about being able to pray "in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men." It does seem to me and to others of non-belief that it is all vainglorious trappings and not a true show of Xianity.
No one wants you to not have the ability or right to pray as you see fit, or to join with others of similar belief to worship together. The only issue is one of public institutions even appearing to accept one belief system over another. This is what happens when one system of religious laws/beliefs are posted in a large stone statue on public grounds or when a public school official offers public prayers to one system's deity when not everyone in that school follows this system, or when an official allows one religious group to use public facilities while denying it to others.
The rights of the minority over the majority are what this country was founded on. No one is stopping the majority from believing anything they want or from proclaiming this belief in a private capacity. What they do not have the right to do is to force others to accept this belief.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
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bob_gray
Member (Idle past 5042 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 56 of 165 (173937)
01-05-2005 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Hangdawg13
01-04-2005 2:05 PM


which principles are uniquely Christian?
Hangdawg13,
I had a similar question to JustinCy. While I understand that many of the men who were involved in the creation of the US were indeed Christians I have never been able to pinpoint the Christian influence. Exactly which principles of the founding of the US are uniquely Christian? It seems to me that if none of them are unique to Christianity then it would be misleading to say that the nation was founded on Christian principles. In fact you could almost argue that the country was founded in spite of Christian principles (ie. freedom of religion) rather than because of them (ie. one true god and if you don't believe you are going to hell so you better be a believer)
Thanks in advance,
BG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-04-2005 2:05 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 58 by Tal, posted 01-05-2005 3:28 AM bob_gray has replied
 Message 80 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-05-2005 1:18 PM bob_gray has replied

JustinC
Member (Idle past 4873 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 57 of 165 (173968)
01-05-2005 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by bob_gray
01-05-2005 12:18 AM


Re: which principles are uniquely Christian?
Just as a quick comment, my brother loves the PhD websites. I only figured them out because of you and he said they relate to his life as a graduate student in mechanical engineer at CMU to a large degree and helped him understand that advisors are always hard on their students, no matter how good their research is.
They are hilarious websites. I love the character who never writes his PhD thesis. Brilliant. I know ten guy just like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by bob_gray, posted 01-05-2005 12:18 AM bob_gray has not replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 58 of 165 (173969)
01-05-2005 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by bob_gray
01-05-2005 12:18 AM


Re: which principles are uniquely Christian?
While I understand that many of the men who were involved in the creation of the US were indeed Christians I have never been able to pinpoint the Christian influence.
Example:
George Washington, the Father of our Country, is well known to Americans for the accomplishments of his adult life: commander-in-chief during the American Revolution, statesman, and President. Few, however, are familiar with his youth or know anything more about it than perhaps the folklore surrounding the hatchet and the cherry tree incident. Yet, possibly his younger years form the most important time for our national hero, for often it is what occurs in one's youth that determines what one becomes as an adult. Or, in the words of a contemporary proverb, "As the sapling is bent, so goes the tree."
It is for this reason that the account of not only what happened to, but of what happened around the young George Washington during the battle on the Monongahela is so important. Washington was only a 23 year-old colonel at the time of the battle and certainly the details of this dramatic event helped to shape his character and even confirmed God's call on this young man. Washington's part in the battle of the Monongahela is undisputably one of the most significant events of his early life--his life literally hung in the balance for over two hours. Fifteen years after the battle, the chieftan of the Indians Washington had fought sought him out and gave this account to Washington of what had happened during the battle:
"I am chief and ruler over my tribes. My influence extends to the waters of the great lakes and to the far blue mountains. I have traveled a long and weary path that I might see the young warrior of the great battle. It was on the day when the white man's blood mixed with the streams of our forest that I first beheld this chief [Washington]...I called to my young men and said...Quick, let your aim be certain, and he dies. Our rifles were leveled, rifles which, but for you, knew not how to miss--'twas all in vain, a power mighter far than we, shielded you...I am come to pay homeage to the man who is the particular favorite of Heaven, and who can never die in battle."
Following the battle, Washington wrote a letter to his brother in which he readily and openly acknowledged:
"By the all-powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability or expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat, and two horses shot under me, yet I escaped unhurt, although death was leveling my companions on every side of me!"
The Bullet Proof George Washington
A quick google will also bring up other sources.
This message has been edited by Tal, 01-05-2005 03:32 AM

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by bob_gray, posted 01-05-2005 12:18 AM bob_gray has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Silent H, posted 01-05-2005 5:58 AM Tal has replied
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 59 of 165 (173987)
01-05-2005 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Tal
01-05-2005 3:28 AM


Re: which principles are uniquely Christian?
What on earth does the fact that Washington survived a battle, and attributed it to providence, have anything to do with whether the US was influenced by Xianity, or even that his brand of Xianity is the same as that of today.
From what I understand he, like most of the others, was a deist. The influence would be barely perceptible.
By the way, do you really accept the account of a chief dropping by to talk to Washington and talking like the excerpt.
Sounds like 'twas high heap big trash, aka just another cherry tree.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Tal, posted 01-05-2005 3:28 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Tal, posted 01-05-2005 6:48 AM Silent H has replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 60 of 165 (173997)
01-05-2005 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Silent H
01-05-2005 5:58 AM


Re: which principles are uniquely Christian?
What on earth does the fact that Washington survived a battle, and attributed it to providence, have anything to do with whether the US was influenced by Xianity, or even that his brand of Xianity is the same as that of today.
None, he was clearly a Hindu.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Silent H, posted 01-05-2005 5:58 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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