Paul Harvey's take on prayer in public/Xmas (In general, a "freedom of speech" topic)

Not believing in Santa Claus does not condemn you to Hell for all eternity. Perhaps it is promoting one faith over another that people object to. People do not hire lawyers either when their kids are taught many different creation myths at school, so what is his point? Perhaps your life wont be but you liberty is, and your pursuit of happiness. Surely you have the right to go to a football game and not have someone else’s mythology rammed down your throat, and hearing thousands of people fawning over a non-existent, ancient folk tale character is not everyone’s idea of happiness. It seems as if Harvey is the one making the big deal, if it is no big deal then why moan about it? It is still encroaching on people human rights regardless of how long the begging is. Why do they have to make such a song and dance about it then? Prayer is a private thing, but these Christians seem intent on showing off to the rest of the crowd. ‘Look at me, I am a Christian, see how I pray to God’. Why not just pray to God anyway, prayer between you and Him, what is the problem is it because you want to broadcast your faith? But, is the USA founded on Christian principles? I very much doubt it. Gzus, there are more gullible Americans than I thought. Why would anyone expect any type of religious ritual at a football game? Are there Jewish prayers before football games? Why? I certainly wouldn’t. Muslim do not just pray anywhere, it has to be a clean place with enough room for their prayer mat. This guy hasn’t a clue. This guy is extremely ignorant of other faiths. Buddha is not seen as a god in Buddhism, and he is in Pari-nirvana so praying to him is no good. Some Buddhists focus on Buddha as an example that all can attain enlightenment. But, praying to Buddha is nonsense and doesn’t happen. Also, there are countless Buddhas that are said to have existed, and Boshisattvas who help people attain enlightenment. Old Paul could do with an editor. Well, the fact that none of the above actually happen would help wouldn’t it? Do what the Roman Catholics do? Would Paul pray to Mary and the Saints? The atheists who couldn’t care less about this silly mythology? All they would do is humour you. Are atheists complaining? AH, so he isn’t a Roman Catholic. We have been humouring you for centuries, you just don’t realise it. Pray in private if it is too much to ask for you to be civil to other people. So why do the thousands not just pray anyway, what is going to happen ot them, will they be jailed, or the game abandoned? Neither will not having a prayer, so stop whinging there are more important things ti worry about. Winning the game for example. What about other people’s rights? Next you will think it is okay for the National Front to have a five minute slot before every football match in the UK. Don’t see anything there about praying before football games. Even when you are eating and sleeping? Isn’t it just before football games? I mean they aren’t telling people to stop praying at all times are they? I don’t think it is God that needs to help you, although a psychiatrist could help a lot. If you prayed in silence then that would suite everyone, but no you got to draw attention to yourselves. What a bunch of attention seekers. Have a vote on it then and stop moaning about it. USA is a democracy, vote for heavens sake. While all the time telling you that you are going to hell and that you are evil worthless scum. Is he still talking about the game here? And those that never think about him for a second. America has faults? except for Scotland of course, who dragged the rest of the world out of the dark ages. Is that what it is all about?Anyway, pray before you go to a football game, go to church before a game and fill yer boots, have a ball, then go to the game, or pray in silence at a game, what is the difference?Are Christians annoyed because they are not allowed to put their faith on show?Brian.

Yes they are. I have the right not to listen to bigoted comments from Christians.Do you think it would be okay for the KKK to stand up before a game and inform us all how superior white people are to black people? It doesn’t bother me at all, I find it embarrassing more than anything else. I don’t believe in god. It isn’t me that’s complaining, it's some Christian nut. But it isn’t your right to pray in mixed company, don’t you understand human rights? You don’t seem to understand what freedom of speech actually is. You have the freedom of speech but you also have the responsibility of not offending anyone when you speak. Human rights do no come without responsibilities. So, if you are offending anyone in a particular situation you should quite rightly be told to be quiet. Care to back that up? I dare say the KKK would like to do it too! You aren’t making any sense.It is a sporting venue for people to witness a sporting contest, it isn’t a flaming church. He must have had a good case then surely? You don’t just turn up and tell people to do things and they do them. Quite rightly as well. If she was warned and broke the school rules then she should rightly be suspended. I don’t know how a parent can be happy that their child blatantly disobeying authority, this is very un-Christian you know. I am sure Paul would not have approved. Performing religious rituals in mixed company is uncivilised, and very impolite. If she was arrested then she must have broke the law! How can you defend people that blatantly break the law like this? Why? No they don’t, as my KKK example shows. But it does if they are offended by it. You are basically saying that racism is not violating anyone else’s human rights! You mean the little girl that broke the school rules? She ignored the warning and her disobedience rightly earned her a suspension. But this offends people, it is no different to a KKK rally. And there are places where this can and cannot be done. Exactly, National Anthems are outdated. I am not superior to anyone, but the author of this article has got no idea what he is talking about. Not all believers are sad little children but some certainly act as if they are. But you are free to worship and follow your religion, you just aren’t free to force others ot listen to it. Pick an evangelist any evangelist. But why pray at a sporting venue? There is a time and place for everything. And as I said, you can pray without all the song and dance without anyone knowing, why draw attention to yourself? No their privileges are being taken away, no one has the right to offend anyone else in public.Brian.

Hi J That would depend on what you are preaching.In Scotland if you were preaching that homosexuality is an abomination and that all gay people are going to burn in hell, if anyone took offence at that you would more than likely be charged with a public order offence. You have the right to free speech, but you also have a responsibility. Did Christians organise the game? Did they inform all potential customers that there would be a public prayer before the game? In Scotland you would have to inform the customers that prayer was on the menu. Any public sporting event has to be licensed by the local government who can tell you what and what not to do before they give you permission to go ahead. The stadium may be privately owned but it is the council and police who have the final say, if they are not fully happy then the event does not go ahead. What about the ones who do not want to pray, should they be forced to listen to you and your chums gurgling away? What????You cannot seriously be telling me that racism is legal in the USA?
Gzus, in Scotland if you are at a football game and you make racist comments to a coloured player then you are arrested and charged, and normally banned from the football ground for life. There are many examples of this happening in Scotland. It is a sad day when you can freely make racist comments without fear of punishment, how backward is your country? What about discriminating against non-Christians at football games? Oh, you can hate them, you just cannot tell them why and you cannot use derogatory comments towards them either. Why should someone be subjected to abuse by another person regardless of the situation? I am speaking from a stance of decency and civility. I find it amazing that America is so backward in terms of equality. So why was this student arrested? To be arrested you surely have to break the law?You do not get arrested for not breaking the law.Brian.

Hi HD So, you have the right to stand on a street corner and shout ‘N*gg*rs are scum and should be thrown out of America’? What about freedom of speech?IF, everyone knew in advance that there was going to be a Christian prayer then they could choose whether to go or not. But, to only have Christian prayers is to discriminate against non-Christian groups, that is the problem. Have your prayer, then have other prayers, then have someone say how ludicrous the Jesus myth is. That’s fair. They are losing their privilege to discriminate against others who they see as inferior. It isn’t a freedom to offend other people. I don’t think Christian prayer is worth complaining about, it is difficult to think of anything that is a bigger waste of time. That’s one of the possibilities at this forum LOL, you knew the possibility before you replied. I wasn’t offended at all. It is all to do with context, I do not know the law regarding internet boards. I believe that some individuals would go that far though. Hey, no probs, it was a particularly quiet day yesterday. No way. The government has a responsibility to ensure that its civilians are not abused in any way and that law breakers are punished. Surely then the Christians should have the integrity not to offend others in public with their inane ranting?We had a Christian student in out department last year and him and I went into town one day for a coffee and sandwich.Now, before he began eating his sandwich he asked my if I objected to him thanking God for his lunch, I said ‘fine, go ahead’. This is how it should work, you can pray to God and be civil at the same time. The government makes the laws, and makes sure that they are not broken, and when they are they make sure that the criminal is dealt with. But for anyone else to do it is to take the law into their own hands, where would it stop? This topic has been done here before and your conclusion is mistaken. But, I will let the American members inform you of the errors, as some have already done. Are you saying that in America you just suddenly decide to hold a major sporting event and the government has nothing to do with it?
Don’t you need permission to hold the event, police, insurances, parking permission, traffic issues?You just go ahead and not ask anyone?Every event in the UK has to be licensed and approved by the local council who may not allow you to procede. It is logic worthy of anyone with the ability to think.A guy turns up at a school and tells them to stop prayers and the school says ‘yes okay’?Yeah right.The school must have been aware that there would be repercussions if they ignored the guy. Why wouldn’t the school say that they were within their rights to have prayers so we are sorry but we cannot carry out your request? Are you so blind that you cannot see that the girl must have broke at least two school rules and deserved to be suspended?She is part of a school where it is forbidden to pray, she is part of a school where all pupils must do as they are told by their teachers.Firstly, she broke the praying rule.Then she broke another rule by not following teacher’s instructions.Then she broke the prayer rule again!Is this the type of attitude that you want to instil in youngsters?Break the rules as much as you can, have no respect for the institution you are in?If she wasn’t happy then go to another school, or get Desdamoaner to home school her. How on Earth is it irrational??????You told me she had been arrested, if you are arrested then surely you have broken the law. What are they arresting her for if she has done nothing wrong? Whether you agree with it or not, she was arrested for breaking the law.Now, where is the irrationality in my statement. Nowhere, it is completely rational to conclude that if someone is arrested then they have broken the law. There is nothing irrational. There must be a law that she broke or she wouldn’t be arrested. The police would have to tell her why she was being arrested.Too bored to go on!!Have a nice new year Brian

Hi S, So, it is legal to verbally abuse a footballer with racist insults?That is astounding from an outsider's point of view.Brian.

Do you remember the outcry when Rangers signed Mark Walters and Celtic supporters were throwing bananas all over Ibrox?It appears that this would be legal in America.Didn't Dwight York have some sort of incident with a racist fan a few weeks ago?Brian.

Hi, Exactly, and why on Earth is this acceptable? Why should someone be able to call another person a disgusting black bastard without fear of punishment?How can any decent person agree with this?Essentially, you are agreeing that two bug muscular white guys could verbally abuse a small black girl without fear of prosecution? This is horrendous. A verbal assault is every bit as bad as a physical assault, and both are a crime in Scotland. The speech is offensive and thus a crime, what is so difficult to understand? Although, it appears that some Americans are very happy that they are free to call someone a fucking nigger, what a great country. I do understand what you are saying,In America you can scream in someone’s face that they are a black bastard and you have done nothing wrong.In Scotland, you can still scream in someone’s face that they are a black bastard but you will be arrested for it.Simple really, and disgusting. You are seriously fucked up then. And you would die for the right for someone to call another human being a filthy nigger, you are quite a guy.I have no problem with people having an opinion; my problem is broadcasting that opinion to the detriment of other human beings.Sure, people can believe that whites are superior to blacks or vice versa, but as soon as they start broadcasting that then they should be prosecuted. No, it is called education and equality.How can someone have the opinion that one human being is superior to another, that is hugely ignorant and offensive?People are going to think whatever they want regardless of the law, but we are not going to make society any better by telling people they are free to verbally abuse another person. I never said outlaw free thought and expression, I said outlaw racism and other types of abusive behaviour.If you want to fight for the right for some asshole to shout on street corners that ‘niggers are disgusting animals’ then you need to have a serious look at yourself. So what happens if you or the KKK voice your views in a public park? According to you it is okay to shout racist comments as long as there is no disruption in the area. If there was no disruption then we can assume that they aren’t offending anyone, and thus conclude that there are no decent human beings in the area. Maybe it is time you updated this primitive legislation. Yes it does. If there is a Christian prayer and I am a muslim then, unless you also have a muslim prayer then you are discriminating against Muslims and all other faiths for that matter. But, offence is illegal in Scotland. This example is just one of many. A FOOTBALL fan was found guilty yesterday of racially abusing the Celtic players Bobo Balde and Momo Sylla.

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Alan Martin, a former Dundee Football Club season ticket holder, shouted "black bastard" and "suck bananas" while making monkey noises at the Celtic stars when the two teams met at Dens Park for a Scottish Premierleague match in March.

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His racist tirade so sickened a 14-year-old Dundee fan that he reported the bricklayer’s labourer to the police, who kept Martin under surveillance in the second half of the game
Martin, 50, of Sandeman Street, Dundee, who said he had been going to Dens Park for nearly 40 years, shouted the racist comments about four or five times in the first half and the boy felt "quite offended". If I hear one of my students racially abusing another student I ave to fill in various forms that will be passed on to the police who will decide if they prosecute or not. So, offending someone is a crime, simple as that. Maybe it is time that America caught up with the more civilised countries.It appears that we are arguing over different legal systems. Maybe the American one can evolve into something resembling common decency sometime soon. Yes, and I have the right not to have my faith abused in public. But, the thing is, I do have the right to not be offended, just as my example showsApparently I do not have the right to feel offended if I live in America, a country that I thought was more advanced than this, but I was obviously wrong. Not in this country you can’t. You tell someone you hate them because they got slant eyes or black skin, or white skin, you would be arrested and charged. Why should they have to walk away when they should not be subjected to verbal hatred in the first place? What kind of society thinks it is okay to call people disgusting names and it is then up to them if they want to listen or not?America must be some place to live in. Apparently it is not illegal in the USA, maybe it is about time that it was, it would certainly cut down your crime figures. You are against laws that force people not to abuse others, dear God what kind of person are you? I didn’t say they made laws on how to make people think, I said make laws to protect people from verbal abuse. Perhaps if people were charged with racially abusing others then Americans may think twice about racially abusing others and then it may filter through that it is wrong to think of others as inferior, this may eventually educate some Americans into realising that we all have the right to live freely without fear of being abused because of the colour of your skin. Well, it was HD’s example not mine and I don’t think that HD is a liar. I commented n what he posted that’s all.He said Well, the thousands might get away with it, but I recall a female valedictorian who was arrested after mentioning Jesus in her graduation speech. ...And the school might get sued for failing to stop it. Think about it logically.She was arrested for mentioning Jesus, therefore mentioning Jesus must have been illegal in this context whatever it was.Why would the police be involved if what she had done wasn’t illegal. Surely when you call the police they ask you what crime you want to report. If you say that someone mentioned Jesus in a speech and you want that person arrested then the police are not going to call round if the law hasn’t been broken, they would just say, ‘well what is the crime you want to report?’The police won’t arrest someone unless there is a possibility that a crime has been broken. Do you think they just arrested her without telling her why she was being arrested? The police need to act on the spot on the available information, if there was no chance that she had broken any law then why arrest her?
Wouldn’t she say that she had done nothing wrong? I have, and the implication is that people would live in a society where they are free from being abused because of the colour of their skin. Sorry if this offends you, but I think any decent person would think this an excellent goal. Bollocks.Protecting someone from being called a fucking nigger offends everyone does it?I haven’t heard so much ignorance in my life. Bollocks again.America needs to take a huge step forward by updating its primitive laws.How can you think it is okay to call someone a fucking nigger. It is beyond my comprehension. But George Bush does suck, he’s a moron. But, if George Bush was offended by this then why should he be forced to see these stickers on people’s cars? And if you started offending people by what you were saying, for example, that homosexuals are evil and will burn in hell, you would be arrested, and rightly so. We are a free nation too, where people are free from being racially abused by morons who think that some people are superior to others.We have freedom of speech here, but we are obviously more civilised because we care about not offending others by what we say.We recognise that our right to free speech comes with a responsibility not to offend others.I know which society I prefer.Brian.

But you shouldn’t be allowed to do that either! Freedom of speech does not mean that you can just say whatever you want whenever you want. Of course it is. There is no reason why someone should be legally told that they are a black bastard. Do you not think that Muslims would feel abused that Christians are praying to a false God, and they have to listen to it?Get a grip. I don’t think that there is any chance that America will catch up with the more civilised countries in the near future. So you should be okay for a while. Why not? If he knew before hand that I would be offended then he has abused me and should be arrested. LOL, Gzus what a place. You would be proud that she was insolent and ignorant, what a great daddy you are. Teach your kids to defy adults and break the rules, no wonder kids are so ignorant these days. If you allowed her to go to a school where you knew that it was against the rules to pray then what case have you got.Would you come into my house and shit on my floor and be upset when I threw you out? But you will let her blindly follow a moronic 200 year old myth LOL. Yes exactly, and we can see what a idyllic place America is. Yes, being civil to others is a real sickness. How did she not, she got arrested for not breaking the law, damn that’s qute nasty really. But the laws apply in these places. Are you saying that you cannot commit a crime in a school? She wasn’t arrested for praying over her food, she was suspended from school for praying over her food and being disobedient towards a teacher.It was the student who mentioned Jesus in her speech that was arrested. Why, she broke the law and just because YOU think she did nothing wrong then it is a travesty.What about people who think that heroin should be legalised? I am sure they find it a travesty that people are arrested for selling heroin. She deliberately broke the law, if the story is true, and deserves to be punished.Brian.

Hi S, An opinion that a black person is inferior to a white person and that the white person has a right to call a black person a fucking nigger is acceptable to you?Free speech is fine, but to have free speech that makes another human being feel worthless is disgusting.There are ways to voice an opinion in a proper fashion. If you want coloured people out of America then there are peaceful ways of putting your opinion across. There are official channels for voicing your opinion.How do you think Scotland brought in her laws against racism? We didn't acheive it by calling people niggers and Paksis. Decent people complained about the dehumanisation of others by racist abuse and the laws were passed. This is obviously where a decent moral society varies from America. Americans do not see a problem with being free to call someone a black bastard, yet other societies are horrified by this. They are all victims of verbal abuse.What damage do you think could be done to a child who is continually being called a fat useless bastard? Is this a good thing for their self-esteem?Do you think a kid being called pizza face all the time would just laugh it off and not feel abused?I am sure you know that verbal abuse can have long term psychological effects on a child.I would also like to think that if a parent heard their child calling another child 'fatty' that they would horrified and punished their child accordingly.Unless it was America of course, where the child would remind the parent that it is their right to be able to call another kid a fat bastard.No wonder there are so many divisions in American society.Brian.

This is a reply to another post, and is my last on the topic as I am bored to tears with it. It is a basic human right not to be abused because of the colour of
your skin!! You can express a political opinion, but you need to be polite about it. You wouldn’t be arrested for that. Why is it fascist to ban people from calling others a black bastard?
You are still free to think that they are, or even talk about it with you other racist friends. What you cannot do is call someone a black bastard to their face, no one should be subjected to that. No I wouldn’t, because you are fucked up. You would have to prove that you aren’t fucked up in order to make the charge stick. You would have difficulty doing that. Why should George Bush be subjected to abuse? Why can’t you have a sticker that says George Bush is not my favourite person? Why do you have to insult others all the time? You can have your opinion, and the racist can have theirs, there is no law against that. But the objects that you both hate shouldn’t be subjected to personal verbal abuse.Look at George Bush, the guy looks completely vacant and almost every time he speaks he speaks he makes a howler of some kind, the guy is an embarrassment (and US president ), but why should he be subjected to personal abuse? You can still voice your opinion without being abrasive. They aren’t legislated against in Scotland either. The legislation is against verbally abusing others and there is a particular law related to racial abuse.There was an example earlier of a football game in America where it is okay to call players things like useless black bastard and, unless a riot broke out, or a physical threat accompanied the racist comments, then there was no crime committed. In my example from Scotland, someone shouting racist comments was arrested. Has his opinion changed? I don’t think so, was he forbidden to shout the comments? No, he was free to shout them, he just had consequences to deal with. They aren’t legislated against. You are free to think that whites are superior, you just aren’t free to tell a black person that to their face in an insulting manner. They aren’t forced, they can do what they want, they have a penalty to pay for that though. You mean at the moment you cannot be arrested for that? Is it obvious that you mean the President? They should be arrested for that, how ignorant can a person be? People who have abortions have enough suffering to go through without clowns making comments like that. You would be done under the trades description act over here for that one. I actually could be. But, at court I could cite many examples that would get me a not guilty verdict. So? Learn to be civil then and complain politely. If the clothes are offensive then why not? You would get done for indecent exposure for nudism here, except for resorts. I don’t know about that one. They are free to think what they want, I haven’t said that opinion is outlawed. So, what about the American footballers who are being abuse because of their skin colour, have they to pack in their jobs so they don’t have to hear the abuse? I could be arrested if you complained, but you would have trouble making it stick. I want everyone to be protected by the law, including verbal abuse. But the result of what someone says has an effect on whoever it is said to. An American footballer gets called a black bastard and because there is no repercussions then that’s fine. What about the effect these comments have on the footballer’s self esteem and well being? You don’t know what it could do to some people. But it is okay to force non-Christians to listen to this nonsense? It is true, I posted an example of it for you.If I hear one of my students racially abusing another student I ave to fill in various forms that will be passed on to the police who will decide if they prosecute or not. So, offending someone is a crime, simple as that. Maybe it is time that America caught up with the more civilised countries. The opinion isn’t the crime, the racist comment it another person is the crime. You can rest assured that no one is stopping you from thinking that someone is inferior to you. You have no idea how serious verbal abuse can be do you? Do you know what continuous verbal abuse can do to a person? In any decent society you wouldn’t get away with calling a shop that. You are having a laugh surely?The black footballers who were called racist names have no right to be protected under the law?We are oppressing people’s basic human right to call someone a black bastard, you need some serious help. That is terrible. How many people have suffered from lack of protection from verbal abuse? Everyone should be able to walk around freely in society without being verbally abused, that’s what it has to do with society. That’s the beauty of a nation that thinks every one is equal, maybe America will catch up some day. Yep, I should be. But, you are fucked up so i have done nothing wrong. Yes, you can abuse as many people as you like, it must be great. LOL But what about people who have the ability to leave, such as the footballers?You seem to think that hurting someone’s feelings cannot lead to serious problems. You should do some research on this. So what is the difference? To call someone a black bastard is to abuse them, and surely they would be offended by this. You think that everyone is capable of shrugging off stupid comments, but they don’t. I couldn’t care lesswhat others think of me and I would shrug it off, but not everyone has this outlook. Many people take personal comments very seriously and it can have a long term affect on their life, this is abuse.DO you think that everyone who is called ‘fatty’ by other kids just laugh it off? Get in touch with reality. Police can be wrong here too, and frequently are. But when they arrive at the scene of an alleged crime they aren’t just going to arrest someone if there is no POSSIBILITY that a crime has been committed.In America, what do police do when they receive a phone call or someone flags down their car? Do they not ask what the problem is? Do they arrest someone without enquiring what the complaint is? If the girl was arrested then she was arrested for some reason, there must have been some dialogue surely. It wasn’t my example, you would need to ask HD for the details. I was responding to what he wrote. You mean they just turn up and arrest people for no reason? In the land of the free? They don’t even make a charge up? They dont say we are arresting you for xyz? It isn’t thought legislation, it is protection from verbal abuse that can have harmful long-term affects. It wouldn’t be destroyed, you would just have ot be more selective over the words that you use. Anyway, if the majority of a society want racial comments to be a crime then the government is duty bound to bring in laws to support that. I am not asking you to share my moral system, decent people already share it. That is because you are so self centred that you do not think that personal comments have long term harmful effects. Just because you and I are strong enough emotionally to not give a shit what others think doesn’t mean that everyone is like us.Some people have committed suicide because their ‘feelings have been hurt’. Try putting yourself in the place of others and then think about what you are saying. SO, you are happy to allow others to have a bumper sticker that says ‘I hate filthy stinkin niggers’Are you happy that people can drive around with stickers that say this? In the free world you cannot abuse people. In crazy America it seems that racial abuse is great as long as no one is seen as being immediately affected by the comments. That ten years down the line a person takes their life because they have been dehumanised by racist comments over a long period of time seems to be okay with you. I am commenting on what Americans here have said.Americans at this site said that you can call footballers ‘Niggers’ at a game and nothing would happen to you unless there is a threat along with the comment. That is not the same protection that they have here at all. Yes you can, just don’t sing and dance about it at the same time. But you do not have the right to abuse others, it is not a basic human right to racially abuse another person.