Paul Harvey's take on prayer in public/Xmas (In general, a "freedom of speech" topic)

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Your example of the KKK at the football game is not valid because the KKK are presumably not the organizers of the game and therefore would be disturbing the peace

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The example is entirely valid. If a supporter of the KKK was the originator of the event, according to your argument if they came up and expounded overtly racist hate-speech you would just sit there unmoved.

Try and pass the common sense test.The KKK hold events. They say whatever they want to there.I chose not to go to the event.Common sense test = pass.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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I chose not to go to the event.

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Irrelevant - it was a hypothetical.Secondly, are ball-games as specific a venue as a KKK rally? Are only christians allowed to watch ballgames, or is there some reason that only christians are expected to come? If not, then ramming your bloodthirsty religion down the audiences throat is at the very least impolite.Now answer the question. If you innocently went along to a ballgame, which to your surprise happened to be run by the KKK, you will sit there unmoved as they propounded their supremacism, and think nothing of it, correct?

You are still failing the common sense test.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Hi, Exactly, and why on Earth is this acceptable? Why should someone be able to call another person a disgusting black bastard without fear of punishment?How can any decent person agree with this?Essentially, you are agreeing that two bug muscular white guys could verbally abuse a small black girl without fear of prosecution? This is horrendous. A verbal assault is every bit as bad as a physical assault, and both are a crime in Scotland. The speech is offensive and thus a crime, what is so difficult to understand? Although, it appears that some Americans are very happy that they are free to call someone a fucking nigger, what a great country. I do understand what you are saying,In America you can scream in someone’s face that they are a black bastard and you have done nothing wrong.In Scotland, you can still scream in someone’s face that they are a black bastard but you will be arrested for it.Simple really, and disgusting. You are seriously fucked up then. And you would die for the right for someone to call another human being a filthy nigger, you are quite a guy.I have no problem with people having an opinion; my problem is broadcasting that opinion to the detriment of other human beings.Sure, people can believe that whites are superior to blacks or vice versa, but as soon as they start broadcasting that then they should be prosecuted. No, it is called education and equality.How can someone have the opinion that one human being is superior to another, that is hugely ignorant and offensive?People are going to think whatever they want regardless of the law, but we are not going to make society any better by telling people they are free to verbally abuse another person. I never said outlaw free thought and expression, I said outlaw racism and other types of abusive behaviour.If you want to fight for the right for some asshole to shout on street corners that ‘niggers are disgusting animals’ then you need to have a serious look at yourself. So what happens if you or the KKK voice your views in a public park? According to you it is okay to shout racist comments as long as there is no disruption in the area. If there was no disruption then we can assume that they aren’t offending anyone, and thus conclude that there are no decent human beings in the area. Maybe it is time you updated this primitive legislation. Yes it does. If there is a Christian prayer and I am a muslim then, unless you also have a muslim prayer then you are discriminating against Muslims and all other faiths for that matter. But, offence is illegal in Scotland. This example is just one of many. A FOOTBALL fan was found guilty yesterday of racially abusing the Celtic players Bobo Balde and Momo Sylla.

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Alan Martin, a former Dundee Football Club season ticket holder, shouted "black bastard" and "suck bananas" while making monkey noises at the Celtic stars when the two teams met at Dens Park for a Scottish Premierleague match in March.

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His racist tirade so sickened a 14-year-old Dundee fan that he reported the bricklayer’s labourer to the police, who kept Martin under surveillance in the second half of the game
Martin, 50, of Sandeman Street, Dundee, who said he had been going to Dens Park for nearly 40 years, shouted the racist comments about four or five times in the first half and the boy felt "quite offended". If I hear one of my students racially abusing another student I ave to fill in various forms that will be passed on to the police who will decide if they prosecute or not. So, offending someone is a crime, simple as that. Maybe it is time that America caught up with the more civilised countries.It appears that we are arguing over different legal systems. Maybe the American one can evolve into something resembling common decency sometime soon. Yes, and I have the right not to have my faith abused in public. But, the thing is, I do have the right to not be offended, just as my example showsApparently I do not have the right to feel offended if I live in America, a country that I thought was more advanced than this, but I was obviously wrong. Not in this country you can’t. You tell someone you hate them because they got slant eyes or black skin, or white skin, you would be arrested and charged. Why should they have to walk away when they should not be subjected to verbal hatred in the first place? What kind of society thinks it is okay to call people disgusting names and it is then up to them if they want to listen or not?America must be some place to live in. Apparently it is not illegal in the USA, maybe it is about time that it was, it would certainly cut down your crime figures. You are against laws that force people not to abuse others, dear God what kind of person are you? I didn’t say they made laws on how to make people think, I said make laws to protect people from verbal abuse. Perhaps if people were charged with racially abusing others then Americans may think twice about racially abusing others and then it may filter through that it is wrong to think of others as inferior, this may eventually educate some Americans into realising that we all have the right to live freely without fear of being abused because of the colour of your skin. Well, it was HD’s example not mine and I don’t think that HD is a liar. I commented n what he posted that’s all.He said Well, the thousands might get away with it, but I recall a female valedictorian who was arrested after mentioning Jesus in her graduation speech. ...And the school might get sued for failing to stop it. Think about it logically.She was arrested for mentioning Jesus, therefore mentioning Jesus must have been illegal in this context whatever it was.Why would the police be involved if what she had done wasn’t illegal. Surely when you call the police they ask you what crime you want to report. If you say that someone mentioned Jesus in a speech and you want that person arrested then the police are not going to call round if the law hasn’t been broken, they would just say, ‘well what is the crime you want to report?’The police won’t arrest someone unless there is a possibility that a crime has been broken. Do you think they just arrested her without telling her why she was being arrested? The police need to act on the spot on the available information, if there was no chance that she had broken any law then why arrest her?
Wouldn’t she say that she had done nothing wrong? I have, and the implication is that people would live in a society where they are free from being abused because of the colour of their skin. Sorry if this offends you, but I think any decent person would think this an excellent goal. Bollocks.Protecting someone from being called a fucking nigger offends everyone does it?I haven’t heard so much ignorance in my life. Bollocks again.America needs to take a huge step forward by updating its primitive laws.How can you think it is okay to call someone a fucking nigger. It is beyond my comprehension. But George Bush does suck, he’s a moron. But, if George Bush was offended by this then why should he be forced to see these stickers on people’s cars? And if you started offending people by what you were saying, for example, that homosexuals are evil and will burn in hell, you would be arrested, and rightly so. We are a free nation too, where people are free from being racially abused by morons who think that some people are superior to others.We have freedom of speech here, but we are obviously more civilised because we care about not offending others by what we say.We recognise that our right to free speech comes with a responsibility not to offend others.I know which society I prefer.Brian.

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You are still failing the common sense test.

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No, YOU are failing the common sense test. I know this because I saw your location and looked up http://www.1st-vets.us and found the following:U.S. Army Values# Integrity - Do what’s right, legally and morally.So why are you in Baghdad as a criminal murderer, doing the wrong thing both legally and morally?Its not really surprising you have problems with basic reasoning, now is it.

But you shouldn’t be allowed to do that either! Freedom of speech does not mean that you can just say whatever you want whenever you want. Of course it is. There is no reason why someone should be legally told that they are a black bastard. Do you not think that Muslims would feel abused that Christians are praying to a false God, and they have to listen to it?Get a grip. I don’t think that there is any chance that America will catch up with the more civilised countries in the near future. So you should be okay for a while. Why not? If he knew before hand that I would be offended then he has abused me and should be arrested. LOL, Gzus what a place. You would be proud that she was insolent and ignorant, what a great daddy you are. Teach your kids to defy adults and break the rules, no wonder kids are so ignorant these days. If you allowed her to go to a school where you knew that it was against the rules to pray then what case have you got.Would you come into my house and shit on my floor and be upset when I threw you out? But you will let her blindly follow a moronic 200 year old myth LOL. Yes exactly, and we can see what a idyllic place America is. Yes, being civil to others is a real sickness. How did she not, she got arrested for not breaking the law, damn that’s qute nasty really. But the laws apply in these places. Are you saying that you cannot commit a crime in a school? She wasn’t arrested for praying over her food, she was suspended from school for praying over her food and being disobedient towards a teacher.It was the student who mentioned Jesus in her speech that was arrested. Why, she broke the law and just because YOU think she did nothing wrong then it is a travesty.What about people who think that heroin should be legalised? I am sure they find it a travesty that people are arrested for selling heroin. She deliberately broke the law, if the story is true, and deserves to be punished.Brian.

No, killing the bad guy in combat is not as criminal as murder. I'm still wondering how the KKK hold football games for the general public.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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No, killing the bad guy in combat is not as criminal as murder.

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But the US army is not there fighting a war - it has carried out an internationally illegal occupation, and the US and allied soldiers are the bad guys. So you are right to say that Iraqi's are entirely free to kill the American and allied bandits infesting their country, and this would not be murder, but any killing you commit is in fact murder as you have no right to be there and no right to commit acts of violence.Now I ask again why you have not upheld your "US Army Values" to do he right thing both morally and legally?

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I'm still wondering how the KKK hold football games for the general public.

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I'm still wondering why you wont answer the question.This message has been edited by contracycle, 01-05-2005 09:28 AM

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But you shouldn’t be allowed to do that either!

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I completely disagree.The way to protect free speech is to allow more speech, not less.If I am not free to voice an opinion, I do not have free speech.

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Freedom of speech does not mean that you can just say whatever you want whenever you want.

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As long as there are no threats in the speech, yes, it does.

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Of course it is. There is no reason why someone should be legally told that they are a black bastard.

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What if somebody called them a lousy Liberal because of his political views, or a four-eyes because he wears glasses, or a fatty because he was overweight, or pizza face because he has acne, and his feelings were hurt?Is he a victim of abuse, and thould the person abusing him be arrested and prosecuted?

Because it doesn't pass the common sense test. Common sense tells us that the KKK do not hold football games for the general public. /patience on1. The majority of insurgents are not Iraqis, and are killing Iraqis. The insurgents drive VBIEDs into the middle of Iraqi school kids, then detonate.2. As to us having no right to be here, we are now here as guests of the Iraqi Interim Govt. We are simply here to help them stabalize thier country.Let me inform you as to the nature of the insurgency. They routinely target Iraqis. They cut people's heads off, film it, then post it on the internet. They blow up kids. They don't care about Iraq or Iraqis, they are here to to kill the easiest target of opportunity in order to gain a media victory.I will commit acts of violence against these types any day of the week.If you would like to continue this line of discussion, please start another post about it.

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Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

No. All I am saying is that you could not call the police and have the KKK arrested for offending you. You don't have to sit there an listen to it. You have every right to stand up and walk away. If it is their event and you want to participate then you are subject to their right to exercise free speech to the attendees of the game.I never said that anyone must accept the speech of others. No where in law does it say that either. What you cannot do is legislate opinion plain and simple. The same laws that give me the right to gather my friends and protest give the KKK the right to gather and hold a rally. I give my support to the ACLU knowing that someday they might defend the KKK and their right to assemble and I would continue to support the ACLU after that. As much as I personally hate the KKK, I would defend their right to free speech like I hope any proper American should.

A ball game might not normally be a venue for the KKK but that is not the point. If the KKK decided to start the KFL and hold games then they have the right to say anything they want at their private sporting event. If you decide to attend, you submit yourself to their speech. If you don't like it, don't go, or don't stay. No one is saying that you have to like it or accept it; just that it is not breaking the law hurting your feeling by hearing the free speech of another person.

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Because it doesn't pass the common sense test. Common sense tells us that the KKK do not hold football games for the general public.

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Common sense says IT IS A HYPOTHETICAL. you should be able to apply your principles consistently to a hypothetical scenario.

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1. The majority of insurgents are not Iraqis, and are killing Iraqis. The insurgents drive VBIEDs into the middle of Iraqi school kids, then detonate.

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Thats nonsense - the US itself reported there were only an expected "couple of hundred" combatatants in Fallujah of which only a few tens were thought to be of foreign origin. There is absolutely zero credible evidence that Iraq is awash with external "insurgents", and plenty of indication that the overhwleming majority of resistance comes from Iraqis directly.And don;t give me sob-stpories about what these imaginary "insurgents" do - you drop bombs on school kids from 15,000 feet and that is in no way morally superior to doing it with a car bomb.

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2. As to us having no right to be here, we are now here as guests of the Iraqi Interim Govt. We are simply here to help them stabalize thier country.

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The iraqi interim government has neither credibility nor recognition; it is an American puppet administration with absolutely zero indepdnandace. It is nothing more than an arm of the US conquest - a factor which Iraqi's well recognise.

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Let me inform you as to the nature of the insurgency.

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There is no INSURGENCY. There is a NATIONAL LIBERATION STRUGGLE.

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They routinely target Iraqis.

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Thats utterly unsurprising. The French resistance targetted those who collaborated witih the occupying Germans. Those Iraqis who collaborate with the US are traitors to their state, after all.

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They cut people's heads off, film it, then post it on the internet.

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Oh boo hoo hoo. Am I supposed to be horrified that they posted it on the internet? Don't be absurd, have you never seen military propaganda before? And of course the cutting off of heads is in no way more shocking, perverse or depraved than the butchery inflicted on Fallujah.

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They blow up kids.

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So do you. Thats what happens when you bomb cities full of civilians, you know. They have kids in them. You just don;t give a shit and refuse to count them or grant them any human dignity, just wishing them away as "collateral damage".

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They don't care about Iraq or Iraqis, they are here to to kill the easiest target of opportunity in order to gain a media victory.

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Of course they are - becuase claiming that media victory shows a) their effectiveness, and b) that they care so much about Iraq and Iraqis - unsurprising seeing as they ARE Iraqi's - that they place their lives at risk to free Iraq from the occupation.

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I will commit acts of violence against these types any day of the week.

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Yes, you would kill people defending their homes and their families from a brutal occupying power because you are a murderer in an army of criminals. I hope every American and allied soldier involved in this atrocity will be brought before the Hague to answer indictments for War Crimes.Edit: I note that you have still failed to explain why you are not living up to your army values and doing the right thing, legally and morally. Morally, it would be right for you to refuse to serve in an army of illegal occupation, fighting against people only defending themselves. Legally, you are personally responsible for your actions, and to refuse to obey illegal orders. The orders to invade Iraq were illegal, and you are personally bound to refuse to follow those orders. And if you do NOT refuse to follow them, you are personally culpable for the crimes you commit in Iraq.This message has been edited by contracycle, 01-05-2005 11:12 AM

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No one is saying that you have to like it or accept it; just that it is not breaking the law hurting your feeling by hearing the free speech of another person.

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We are not talking just about hurt feelings - we are talking about hate speech and the denigration and dehmanisation of others. And this applies to religious speech too, because these claims are implicit in the denigration of other faiths as false gods etc.If you wish to provide venues for this sort of abuse you are welcome to do so. As long as you understand that from my perspective it makes you backward and uncivilised.