Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.

The asymmetry I am seeing is that Hamas can apparently do whatever they want, and they are justified in doing so for whatever reason. Israel responds to thousands of its citizens being killed in a terrorist attack, and everyone clutches their pearls.At the same time, I will fully agree that how Israel carries out the removal of Hamas from Gaza is very, very important. I do think they could have done it differently, just as many US military actions could have been carried out in a more ethical and moral manner. The hard part is that there is nowhere for Palestinians to go. The US levelled Fallujah to get rid of ISIS, but at least the citizens could escape the city. Do you think some sort of military incursion was justified? Hamas was sending suicide bombers across the border, so Israel closed the border. There were no Israeli's in Gaza. What happened in Gaza is the responsibility of Palestinians. They had aid money coming in, but what did they do? Instead of using the money for infrastructure and improving Gaza they used it for terrorism, and to line the pockets of Hamas leaders. Israel didn't do that. What I find frustrating is that Israel is expected to do what no one expects the Palestinians to do. Hamas has sworn to rid all of Israel of Jews, the infamous "From the river to the sea" chant. This is part of Hamas' charter, plainly written out. People think that's fine. However, Israel is supposed to take it on the chin and absorb any and all terrorism. It just seems like there is a real asymmetry in expectations.

You ignored the vast majority of my post, including the most important parts.You seem to be replying to your personal view of people who support Palestinians, and not my actual words and expressed views.I did not apologize for Hamas. I explicitly called them bad guys. The thing is, in a conflict like this, there are only bad guys and their victims. You cannot fight terrorism with military actions. There are literal textbooks on this. You can use military defenses like teh Iron Dome to protect against specific types of attacks, and you can use special forces/drones/other very targeted attacks to "reform" the leadership of a smaller force to make it less radical. But mass bombing and invasion do not and cannot work.Read the ICJ report, it contains source-cited factual details about the oppression of Gaza. You are misinformed. I find it frustrating when people defend an ongoing genocide.I've explicitly answered the concerns you're raising, and you have ignored my points in their entirety, you simple repeat "but Hamas." That's not productive.Please read the ICJ report and tell me which specific facts of Gazan oppression you dispute and why.Please explain why you believe any action from any faction justifies the violence, intentional starvation, and other war crimes being actively committed right thi moment by Israel.I'm 100% fine with sayimg Hamas are bad guys. I've said effectively that from the start - reality isnt black and white, the reasons are complicated, but they're doing unjustifiable bad things. That does not and cannot justify even greater larger-scale crimes by Israel.The Palestinian civilians, just like the Israeli citizens, do not deserve bombs or rape or imprisonment or hostage-taking. They're people. No voting choice or any possible action at all justifies this.Why is it that Israel-apologists think that it's necessary to condemn Hamas with every utterance of an Israeli war crime? Why is it so hard to simply agree that killing civilians, NO MATTER WHAT, is unjustified and evil and should be stopped? Isn't that enough "both sides?" The numbers add up over 30x more evil for one side, with more to come from pending famine, but isn't the core idea that we have fucking empathy for other human beings and don't want to see them hurt/starve/die?The civilians on Oct 7 didnt deserve to die or be captured.
The people of Gaza don't deserve what is currently happening to them.
The difference, other than scale, is that one is still happening and can be stopped, and only one side has the power to stop it.

I would also say that there are only bad choices and worse choices when it comes to how Israel should confront the violence that is being visited on them. At what point is it no longer terrorism? When Germany invaded France (twice), was that terrorism? When a government entity is purchasing and launching missiles into your country, is that terrorism?In my eyes, Hamas is not like Al Qaeda or ISIS. Hamas runs the government of Gaza. They are the government. They funnel aid money into weapons and military training.And at what point is a population responsible for the actions of their government? Were Allied forces justified in bombing German cities during WW II? That's fair. It appears that I was not informed of some of Israel's wrongdoings.There is also the problem of aid money going towards weapons and military training in Gaza, not to mention the ongoing attacks by Hamas and every indication that they will never stop. The goal of Hamas is remove Jews from Israel, and no amount of relaxation of fishing waters or farmland is going to change that. It's not a genocide. If it was a genocide then Palestinians in the West Bank would be under attack right now. Israel is attacking Hamas. Hamas is not a race of people. If the Palestinians had rounded up the Hamas leadership and handed them over this would be done. A country is justified in taking out a government that threatens and is actively attacking them. One of the issues is that I don't know what can be believed in the reports. Many, many times there have been reports whose sole source is Hamas, and they turn out to be lies. There is also the issue of Hamas puposefully using their own population as a shield. For example, they launch missiles from schools and hospitals hoping that Israeli's will have the moral and ehtics that they lack. Then open the Egyptian border. Why hasn't that happened?

Six months on, how close is Israel to eliminating Hamas?Noteworthy:

BBC:

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It has been nearly six months since Hamas fighters broke through from Gaza into Israel on 7 October, killing about 1,200 people and taking hundreds hostage.

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In response, Israel vowed to "crush and destroy Hamas" so that it no longer posed any threat, and to bring all the hostages home.(...) Before 7 October, Hamas was thought to have about 30,000 fighters in Gaza, according to reports quoting IDF commanders.

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Many of Hamas's senior political figures such as Ismail Haniyeh, widely considered to be the group's overall leader, live abroad. But many of its military leadership structure are thought to be inside Gaza.

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In a recent statement, the IDF said it had killed about 13,000 Hamas fighters since the start of the war, although it did not say how it calculated that figure.

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Israel also publishes the names of individual Hamas leaders it says have been killed. (...)However, experts we spoke to said many of the group's prominent leaders in Gaza, including Yahya Sinwar, are still believed to be alive.

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My opinion? Honestly after watching this whole situation (the war itself) develop and the global public reaction that follows, I do not vilify Israel as being a nation bent on genocide. War is hell. It is never justifiable but it occasionally is necessary. Note how even Pelosi herself urges campus protestors to denigrate Hamas as much as they do Israel.No, Israel is not perfect. I did note their restraint in attacking Iran, however. I agree with Percy in that Netanyahu is a large part of the problem, as well as orthodoxy itself.
Israel would never agree to be disciplined and managed by the UN. She is the problem child for the United States, but lest we forget, she is our responsibility. We have made it so for many years.

I'm by far not the first to note this, but the same people who staged protests and sit-ins 50 years ago are now calling for the police to take action on protestors. They say it is imperative that order be restored on our campuses so that students can return to the classes that they're boycotting anyway. The lesson of Kent State has been forgotten.This kind of hypocrisy of the old against the young is rampant across all life. No, you can't go to that party. No, you can't smoke marijuana. No, you're too young to have sex. Yes, you *are* going to college. No, you can't take a gap year and hitchhike across Europe.I think most of the old remember their youth and are actually receptive and understanding. While they want the young to avoid the mistakes they witnessed or even experienced when young, such as getting pregnant or getting arrested for drugs in Thailand, they otherwise want them to experience all of life. But once in charge of something or in a senior position they ignore or forget these attitudes.My kids are out of college, but were they still there then I would support their decision to participate, or not, in campus protests, and I'd wish with all my heart that they aren't hurt if they get arrested, but I'd be very worried, because the nearly fully unqualified immunity we've handed police has freed them to, unwittingly in most cases I believe, prey upon society.--Percy