Existence of Demons (and Angels)

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No it leaves it opens that SOMETHING may be occuring - the Spirit bit is you trying to place it within a christian framework, a step further than we need at the present.

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Not at all, it would simply be to recover how the entire world has thought about these things up until recently, and most parts of the world even now.I really wanted to find some pictures of demons online, as they are quite common in Hinduism and Asian religions, but I couldn't find much. However, there's certainly a lot of information about demons on the web, and plenty of testimony to belief in them from all over the world. Of course many are regarded as "gods" and this is in fact the REAL "Christian framework" as the Bible clearly identifies them all as Satan's minions.Anyway, for your entertainment, a few references:From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"Perhaps the first fact that strikes one who approaches the study of this subject is the astonishing universality and antiquity of demonology, of some belief in the existence of demons or evil spirits, and of a consequent recourse to incantations or other magical practices."CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Demonology=======
Here's a site on gods and goddesses around the world, quite a list. All of these according to Biblical theology are demonic entities given power over the human race because of the Fall, the disobedience of our first parents in Eden -- which is the reason Jesus came to die for us. You know the line from the Christmas Carol "...to save us all from Satan's power when we had gone astray, oooh tidings of comfort and joy..."http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/names/gods.htm=======
Somebody's demonology site:Demonology: List of Demons, Devils, Monsters & Evil Spirits

It isn't just *my* "mythology." The "gods and goddesses" list I posted above (#113?) is a pretty long one. The demonology lists aren't short, and their source isn't Christian.* * * Yes, I do think some mental illnesses in some cases *may* have demonic involvement, especially the kind where the person hears voices.* * * Nonphysical things can't be shown/proved. You either find people's reports credible or you don't. You don't so that's that. * * * The idea of scientific testability began with physical observations. The same kind of verifiability does not go for psychology. But that's OK. You know everything. I know nothing. Have a good day.

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Yes, I do think some mental illnesses in some cases *may* have demonic involvement, especially the kind where the person hears voices.* * *

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Back before psychoactive drugs were developed and it was not fully understood that the brain was the source of behavior, the sanitoriums were filled with "possessed" people and the exorcisms didn't work.

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I wouldn't expect exorcisms to work in most cases. Why should a demon leave when he's happy there? Nothing you've said proves there isn't demon involvement, but even in the cases that are purely psychological I don't see great strides in helping them -- SOME help, yes. But what do they do with such people now? Mostly drug them to calm them down, right? The effectiveness of drugs does not prove anything about the source of the problem. Or let them live on the streets crazy as ever. Great "progress" there. Some of them may be helped by various techniques including great improvements in empathic counseling, but we haven't solved the problems of mental illness.

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People with epilepsy sometimes hear voices. Are they possessed, too, or do they have a condition where their brain produces unsychronized waves of synapses?

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Demon voices do not necessarily mean a person is "possessed" -- merely open to the voices. Whether what epileptics hear is demonic or mental I couldn't judge without knowing more. When I said you couldn't induce what I experienced it's about whether or not clear enough distinctions are being made for judgment to be made. I gave examples where I would expect some perceptual experiences to be mentally produced and said I don't think they are the same as demon produced ones. In the case of an epileptic I'd need to know quite a bit about the quality of the voices involved to make a guess.

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So, if we give the person who hears voices some psychoactive medication, and they stop hearing the voices, did the medication scare the demons away, or did the medication correct something chemical in the brain?

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It MAY have stopped what really was a mentally-produced phenomenon. I've said many times that I do not deny purely psychological versions of these things but you have ignored that so far. Or it may have lessened the person's susceptibility to demonic communication. Or even possibily, the demons may consider it to be in their best interest to back off and let the drugs appear to be effective, who knows?

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Nonphysical things can't be shown/proved.

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And I am telling you that much of what you say is "nonphysical" actually is quite physical.

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You haven't proved it. You haven't answered the distinctions I've raised. You are merely asserting that it's so.

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You either find people's reports credible or you don't.

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Or we give them psychoactive drugs and/or look for possible phisical causes.

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You don't want there to be a physical cause, even though we have a good deal of evidence that points to a physical cause.

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It is true that even before I was a Christian I hated physical explanations for psychological events. We are not automatons. We are not just a bundle of neurons. Our minds are not our brains. We are not Pavlov's dogs.

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You don't so that's that. * * * The idea of scientific testability began with physical observations. The same kind of verifiability does not go for psychology.
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Look, I am married to a research psychologist who deals with physical observations every day. You don't have any idea of what you are talking about, Faith. You are just spewing nonsense.

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I have had experience in the field of psychology myself. >>>I know that drugs make a big difference for many people and I don't know any other solutions to those problems <<< but at the same time I object to the *philosophy* that goes with treating people with drugs or with behavioral techniques either. It's ultimately dehumanizing. Not that anybody working in the field has such attitudes but the underlying philosophy has that tendency.

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Why won't you address my examples of lucid hallucinations brought on by sleep deprivation?

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Maybe I missed them. I will go back and check.

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The idea that the number of people who believe a thing is a factor in determining it's truth is called argumentum ad numerum and it is a common fallacy.

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But neither is dismissing such information valid. You don't KNOW whether it's true or not and simply dismissing the fact that so many -- good grief, the entirety of the human race at one time -- testify to such experiences is hardly scientific. The modern attitude that such things are not real has NO scientific foundation. It's just that it was a popular idea a couple hundred years ago and it's still popular. The scientific level of this debunkery is nothing more than personal incredulity.

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That's why all these eyewitness accounts or "witness evidence" are not evidence. Humans are lousy witnesses. That's one of the reasons why we had to invent science.

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Some things have nothing but witness evidence. That's a fact of life. The highhanded dismissal of people's testimony to their own experience is one of the most inhumane and in fact just plain stupid and destructive things that has happened to this world.

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Also, the santa/demon analogy is hardly silly. Both refer to the belief in an entity for which there is no evidence. The fact that you mistakenly believe in on eof them doesn't make it silly.

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The problem is a cognitive error on your part. Most people can distinguish between purely imaginative ideas and actual experiences. Apparently you cannot and crashfrog can't but that's your problem. Even children can -- they only believe in Santa because trusted adults tell them he's real. The comparison between that and personal experience is ludicrous in the extreme.

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I would really like some kind of comment on these issues, Faith, from my previous message.
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Yes, and I took acid a couple times and the walls melted and the lights exploded into crystalline patterns and I knew it was a hallucination. HOWEVER, SOME people took acid and believed that they had found "God" and a "higher consciousness." And that is a real possibility it seems to me, that drugs can connect a person to a spiritual reality that is ordinarily not experienced.
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Or a spiritual unreality, just like the unreality of the walls melting.

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Depends. It would take very careful investigation to begin to know. You have a habit of dismissing all these things out of hand. You lump things together without any real basis. You ignore the distinctions I myself have made, between psychological and spirital phenomena.

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Don't you see the incredible bias you have, Faith?

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The bias is clearly yours. You don't bother with the obvious distinctions or have any interest in considering them. You have made the most ridiculous statements even after I've been quite clear about the kinds of symptoms I would expect with demon involvement. You'll give a silly scenario about your own supposed demon possession. You obviously couldn't care less about the actual facts of any situation.

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When the walls are melting during an acid trip, you dismiss it as a chemically-induced hallucination, but when someone "finds God" during an acid trip, you automatically consider it to be "real".

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Not at all. I simply consider it to be a possibility, since those who have such experiences don't describe them in the same terms I experienced my own acid trips, and unlike some here I am disposed to be respectful toward people's statements of their own experiences until I have more knowledge. There are whole cultures where the ingesting of drugs for the purpose of spiritual experiences is practiced. I don't know that that's not real. I simply haven't experienced it myself and I have no interest in doing so either as it fits with what I have learned about the reality of demons.

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Why can't ALL of it be a chemically-induced hallucination, INCLUDING the spiritual feelings?

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Some of it may be but your lack of interest in making acute distinctions doesn't convince me you'd be the one to make the determination.

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Well the second idea is silly as NOBODY claims any of it is going on in the real physical world. But if someone described seeing an angel or demon under LSD I personally would consider the possibility of its being a real angel or demon, depending on the description given.

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LOL! You have an incredible double standard. Any "evidence" which supports your belief, you accept, anything that doesn't, you discard.

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You missed the point. Melting walls are first of all walls that actually exist. Seeing something that is not actually physically present would raise many questions that melting walls and other distortions of actual physical reality don't.

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I really do NOT believe, however, that one can hallucinate voices with such clarity or see apparitions with such clarity and they not be real.
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Why not?

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It is very well documented that people can have very real-seeming hallucinations, and in a much more awake state than you were.

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I'd have to read and compare the descriptions myself. I certainly can't trust you to make the necessary observations and distinctions.

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Schizophrenics have hallucinations that are extremely real, with very clear voices telling them things, and they can also have very vivid visual hallucinations.

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But this is just an assertion. I've made distinctions between different kinds of phenomena but you just lump it all together. Just HOW "real" is "real?" You aren't interested in finding out. How carefully are these voices and hallucinations described so that one can judge what exactly is involved?

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Similarly, I had a friend who was working for several days around the clock to finish a project. He had been awake almost constantly for several days. He was in the lab late at night, printing out pages from the computer that he then had to walk down the hall to retrieve from the printer room. Every time he walked down the hall, he was accompanied by a hallucination of a little girl.

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Sleep deprivation may make a person open to extranormal phenomena. How would you distinguish between that and a mental production?

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Also, people racing in the Iditarod dog sled race often report having similar hallucinations due to severe sleep deprivation and stress.

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Same point as above.

Time will tell.

I'm not talking about "taking everybody's word for everything." Good grief.

You know I was talking about research psycholcogy, right? Like, scientists trying to figure out how the brain works.Yes, of course, but there is a tendency in that frame of reference to equate the mind with the brain, and that is the physicalized *philosophy* I object to.

Always a strange experience to see how people misread things I say, but I guess there's nothing I can do about it, having tried pretty hard so far and found it futile.

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Someone once said to me: Know that all things are possible by Faith.

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Faith in Jesus Christ, I hope you mean, not faith in anything else. Nobody can get to know God at all without faith in Him, starting with simple belief that His word is the truth. Those who find fault with it don't know what they are doing to themselves. They are making it impossible to know God even while thinking they are getting to know him.

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Of course I don't. Why should I? It's just another fairy tale, like all the others.

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Ah the blind Dogma of the Unbeliever. Amazing how they project such thought patterns onto others and don't see them in themselves.

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...starting with simple belief that His word is the truth. Perhaps you can tell us why you would believe this?

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Well, such a question can hardly get at it, I'm afraid. There are many reasons. It has the ring of truth. The authors are believable. The testimony of believers is convincing. The great writers/thinkers/doers of Christianity are convincing. My faith in it has only grown with time and experience of it. If you approach it with faith you discover a consistency in it that is apparently lost on those who pick it apart, and the more you learn the more astonishing is the consistency it exhibits. If you approach it with faith in the God who inspired it, it yields enormous riches that are indescribable.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-18-2005 12:34 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 04-18-2005 12:36 PM

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It has the ring of truth.

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Not for the billons of people who have heard of it but not believed it. You are the one so hyped on taking subjective experience as evidence. Are you discounting all those people?

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Yup.I said nothing that suggests I believe everything people say. You've read that into my posts.

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If one must already believe in it for the evidence to be compelling, the evidence must not be all that good.

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I think it was Tertullian who said "I know because I believe." Or maybe Athanasius. That's the way it is with the Bible. It contradicts the wisdom of the world which among other things says one must have a certain kind of evidence to know anything. God's wisdom is "foolishness" to the natural man, as it says.

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It is hardly dogmatic. It is the result of long research into mythology and acceptance of science. This is a common theistic claim, that non belief is as dogmatic as belief. This can be true, but often is not. The problem is that many theists are so accustomed to operating by dogma that they assume others must do so also and that simply isn't so.

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Not so. It's a straight assessment of how you guys talk, in flat dogmatic pronouncements. And that "long research" has done nothing but confirm what you started out believing, begging the question.

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Personally I've never been too impressed by a system of belief that only holds up so long as you never actually put it to the test.

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It's been put to the test over and over. Just not the kind of silly test you would dream up.