Existence of Demons (and Angels)

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That is not the case. I started out christian and it was the interest in mythology, the "long research" that showed me the error in my thinking.

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Hm, another victim of the secularist educational nightmare. Well, what can I say. You want to start a thread to discuss the supposed truths you learned in your study of mythology?

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Just not the kind of silly test you would dream up.

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That is, one that could accurately distinguish between outcomes.

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That would be nice, but so far I haven't seen you show much grasp of what kind of test that would be.

Nonsense. Your post applies to yourself and others here though.

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Oh? Well, then you should have no trouble answering this question: What evidence would convince you that your faith was misplaced, and that what you believed is wrong?

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Well, be precise here. There may be many ASPECTS of my faith that I could find to be wrong as I don't claim to be omniscient, but there is no evidence that could disprove my basic belief in the God of the Bible, just as there is no evidence that could disprove to you the reality of your own body and mind and personality and the reality of other human beings and your interactions with them. Are you prepared to disbelieve the whole web of memories you have of communications with people over your life, family, friends? Certainly some particular memories may be wrong, that happens all the time, but I'm trying to get hold of the whole picture here. It's not like that really but I can't think of anything analogous, just looking for things you know are real but can't prove, and if you could disprove them it would destroy your ability to function. If you could talk yourself out of believing all those things, even what you had for lunch -- also something very difficult to prove once the lunch is gone -- you would induce in yourself something akin to a lobotomy. It's like that.

So you admit that your beliefs are entirely dogmatic and unreasonable? You likely won't admit it, but you have clearly shown that the are.
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In exactly the same sense your belief in your closest relationships is dogmatic and unreasonable.

Not everybody's like you, Faith. Not all of us are so paralyzed by the idea of a little uncertainty about even the things we think we're sure about that we have to cling to dogma and turn our brains off.You don't get it. I don't HAVE any uncertainty. There is NOTHING that could bring it about. Same as you don't have any about the things in your own life that are closest to you that you can't prove. It would take the destruction of your mind to "disprove" them.

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Are you prepared to disbelieve the whole web of memories you have of communications with people over your life, family, friends?
Yes. Does that shock you?

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Not really, depressing though. The view that is held about what science is on this site, evidence and so on, has been showing itself to approach insanity for some time now.

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Insanity = not agreeing with Faith on every single issue.

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That's a good working definition. It will do for now.

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Hm, another victim of the secularist educational nightmare.

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If knowledge and learning must be avoided to maintain a faith, is it a faith worthy of having?

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You don't read very carefully. Knowledge and learning are much to be desired, but secularist education misguides people.{EDIT: The topic was losing faith in God by learning about mythology. Just means that it was taught from the secularist point of view. There's PLENTY to learn about mythology from a Christian point of view that would certainly not compromise one's faith.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-21-2005 01:24 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 04-21-2005 01:26 PM

All around you.

I'd call it a lie myself, not that you are intentionally lying, more like believing a lie yourself. Point is: there's a LOT of proof. Most of it is in the Bible, but there's tons of proof there, all witness proof. And there is also the occasional extrabiblical archaeological backup to validate the Bible itself.

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Just means that it was taught from the secularist point of view.

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My education in mythology was wholly personal, begun by me and conducted with no guidance beyond wide reading. I was a Christian at the time and my initial forays were in the spirit of looking for a explaining parallels to Christianity. You see, it was done from a Christian point of view.

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It soon became apparent to me that the facts I was finding led to a single conclusion... all myths (including Christianity) teach the same lessons. The next question that occurred to me was "Since they all teach the same lessons, why is Christianity inherently better?" I found no answer and still haven't. Simply put, their isn't one.

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Yes, most of the religions -- and myths too I guess, depending on what you are referring to -- agree with Christianity on basic morality and wisdom for living, even down to versions of the Golden Rule. But that's not the meat of Christianity. Nobody is a Christian based only on the morality.

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So, your ill-informed ranting about a "secular education nightmare" aside, you were completely wrong about my history of learning about myth. You are, yet again, wrong and arrogant, or perhaps you just don't read very well.

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Sorry for the false assumption. I stand corrected.

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You say that there is plenty to learn about myth that will not compromise a Christians faith. Well, after the week it takes to learn all that, there is a lot MORE to learn about myth that will make any thinking person start to have some doubts. That being the case, Faith, you are probably safe in reading all the myth you want and need have no fear of your faith being compromised.

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No, I meant that a Christian can learn everything about all myths without endangering his/her faith. The similarities with Christianity confirm its universal applicability, the differences confirm its unique message.

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,but there is no evidence that could disprove my basic belief in the God of the Bible,

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Hi Faith, this one statement sums up perfectley the mindset of many theist. "there is no evidence that could disprove..." Stating that shuts out any possiblity of there EVER being evidence of any kind that would sway your personal beliefs.

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Thats like saying: This man is not guilty and there is nothing you can show me, no amount of evidence will sway my belief that this man is guilty. Regardless of witnesses, murder weapon, video data of him committing the crime, motive, Nothing you can show me will sway me.

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No, it's not like that at all. It's simply saying that I am certain that there is no such evidence. I have no idea what evidence COULD possibly disprove it, I can't even think of what conditions would apply, and I am absolutely certain that there are none. This is not at all a statement of REFUSAL to recognize evidence as you and others try to make of it, simply certainty that it doesn't exist.

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Well ok...faith is believing in something in the absence of evidence....and now faith is believing in something regardless of evidence.

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I disagree. Faith in God is based on powerful evidence of His existence and His trustworthiness, and it couldn't be otherwise. Nobody can have faith in anything/anyone without plenty of evidence for its/his reliability. We aren't built like that.

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How strong is your faith? If you and I were to go up in a plane and I had a parachute and you did not. I put my faith in the laws of physics and the body of knowlege of science. You put your fatih in God that you will not fall to your death. I submit as evidence that you would not take this challenge that your faith is nothing more than lip service.

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I suppose you meant to say IF I would not take this challenge then my faith is not real? Well, as C.S. Lewis said in one way and Pascal in another, IIRC, if you're going to challenge the idea of God it helps if you know what the idea of God IS that you're challenging. You are challenging nobody's idea of God that I'm aware of, certainly not mine, so the only faith that can fail this test is a faith of your invention, not faith as my God requires it of me.As for faith that God won't let the plane crash, not at all, I can't assume such a thing. That's not Christian faith, in fact that's testing God. In fact being there without a parachute would be testing God in the first place if I'm there just to prove to you that I have the "faith" to be there without it.As for your faith in the laws of physics and knowledge of science, there's no law of nature that promises you safety if, say, the laws of physics of an unexpected ice storm cause the law of gravity to defeat the laws of aerodynamic stability. The laws of physics have no more interest in keeping you alive than killing you, and it wouldn't do you any good to plead with them to be merciful either. I suppose it's mostly an academic point, but your faith has to be in, not the laws of physics but the pilot, the designer and builder, the maintenance crew, the people who track and route the flight from the tower, the weather report, and the sheer mad hope that somebody with one of those guns that can shoot down aircraft is not aiming it at your flight or at least has a lousy aim if he is.Anyway faith is not the crazy idea that God won't let me be hurt or even die. I can pray, however, and hope He'll hear and heed. He often does, but He might not; it's always a possibility. When your number's up your number's up, but as a Christian I have no reason to fear death. My faith is in His good will to me personally, and that I will be blessed in death as in life. That in fact could end up being the demonstration of my faith you are asking for, though of course futile for your purposes. When the laws of physics that brought the plane up decide to bring it down toward a snowcovered granite cliff, you might be in a panic since the laws of physics don't promise you any kind of blessing from death. But meanwhile I'd be quite calm and praying and probably trying to get you to acknowledge Christ before impact.P.S. There is nothing whatever in the Bible that is opposed to science and the laws of nature. Science is the gift of God.

Yes faith can be weak and it needs to be protected for that reason. It's very worth it, like something precious that can be lost. And we absolutely DO need to know how the world thinks -- NOT knowing is what exposes young Christians to a loss of faith when they hit college unprepared for the worldly attitudes there. They need to be inoculated with a heavy dose of all of it in a Christian context all through their childhood.

Well, obviously, normally one can't. That's the whole point, Jesus' birth by a virgin is not a normal event. It's a miracle, a special event, a child's being formed in the womb directly by God instead of in the usual way, so that his Father is literally God, and obviously He was given all the requisite male genetic information and numbers of chromosomes by Him directly. It has crossed my mind that His genetic information would be fascinating. Plants were not named. God simply preserved all the seed in other ways. Marine life took its chances in the oceans. God no doubt sent the land animals to Noah. Time frame? It took a hundred years to get the thing built. You think that's too short? He's God as well as a human adult male. I'll leave the calculations to you.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-22-2005 03:27 AM