Atheism is a belief (Why Atheists don't believe part 2)

That`s exactly my point. It requires faith to believe. And your original point that there is an objective reallity of god goes in the wrong direction. It leads to the idea that there is no need to faith after all, since there is objective evidence for god (your words, not mine. I still think there is no such evidence)

Preach to somebody else, Ian, I've lived through several decades of it and that's plenty for anyone.How arrogant of you to presume to inform me of the message of Christianity when I was one for over half of my life.

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I don't say every word I say is inerrant. I only suspect my writing to be inspired

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Also an arrogant presumption.But hey, I am often struck by the vagueness, self-contradictions and baseless claims which crowd your posts and the similarity to the Bible they so demonstrate, so you might have something there.

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Just some things are right. Like He exists.

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Of course, you could be wrong about that.

In order for there to be an objective reality you must:- have sensors to observe the reality.
- trust that you are correctly interpreting the data fed to you by the sensors.That latter is faith based. You didn't do anything to get that faith - you were born with it just as you were with the sensors to detect the objective reality fed to that faith.If you are born again you will be given sensors to collect the data and will be given the faith to trust that which the sensors input to your brain.You need faith alright. But you aren't the one who supplies it for any dealing with objective reality. It is given you.

I`m sorry, but I can assure you that that kind of faith was never given to me

You were a Christian? Hmmm.Whats a Christian Schraf? (talk about me setting 'em up and you knock 'em down! An valiant attempt at an objective answer would be appreciated however) I see that in posting three (no less) smilies alongside that quote I might as well have been pissing against the wind. Seems you can lead a Schraf to smiling but you cannot make her drink (that's an old horsey analogy modified somewhat) I have admitted as much and the terms under which I could be. Your not a "there are no absolute truths (except this one)" merchant are you Schraf?

You got it from somewhere: mindless evolution if you like - but faith is were its all at the end of the day. And you didn't lick it off a stone

Well, we must by our own thoughts, come to unbelief. Otherwise you would still believe, ofcourse.I know that as I was becoming atheist for a month or so, I was entertaining doubtful disputations pertaining to God. And the parable of the sower, describes all people.You have to apreciate that there are many adults who have always been believers throughout. Many times do you mention the majority of christians being evolutionist, and that scientists are christians too.I suspect it would have been very tough for you to carry on believing with all those doubts running riot upstairs. I know that I was close to the change and it was very difficult to deny my own musings and stay faithful.Don't hate me for harbouring irrefutable argumentation Shraff.

I think I missunderstood your previous statement. (hence my less then consistent reply).
I meant to say I do not have the kind of faith needed to believe in the christian god. The one you said came to you unexpectedly depite all the odds. till something like this happens to me I will stick to my intellectual integrity. That`s what I meant to say

I long since accepted that nothing can be really objective in this universe.
None of us can be 100% certain about anything. Objective truth is an ideal that can never be reached.
Guess what. It doesn't matter!
The universe appears to be very consistent in the way it works. It behaves in a way that can be understood and predicted and yes, "explained" to others in a way that they too can understand. That is if those others even exist outside of my own brain. Funny you should say that. I think of myself in exactly the same way. A "Born Again Scientist". Like Shraf, I lived almost half of my life as a Christian but my need to explore the way the universe works very quickly became at odds with my "faith".
I soon developed new sensors too. I like to call them "bullshit detectors". This doesn't even make sense.
The way you portray the whole deal, I have absolutely no choice whatsoever in whether I have this "faith" or not. Even if I wanted it with all my blood pumping muscle it is completely outside of my control.
Beep!! Oh there goes that detector again!

I have to agree with Phat here.
This evangelical preaching and unbending stubbornness of position (about pretty much everything) really pushes me much further away from any kind of faith.I find myself thinking that I would rather be dead than to be like that. This kind of position is the absolute antithesis of everything that I consider good and worthwhile in the world.This kind of attitude is just one more line of reasoning that makes me less likely to believe that God exists since I cannot believe that he (if he is real) would condone this kind of behaviour.Attempting to reach any kind of middle ground of understanding is utterly pointless when your opposite number is utterly unwilling to bend an inch. Far better to just not bother. And with that said, bothering is exactly what I will not do for the remainder of this thread.My final point here is that as a self confessed (and externally branded) Atheist, I utterly lack any belief whatsoever in the existence or non-existence of God or Gods. I simply don't give a crap whether he/she/it/they exist or not.Belief simply don't enter into it!

iano Funny how the quality of madness seems to seep into these sentences iano. It might be better stated another way I think.Someone who would kill their offspring on my behalf has not earned anything from my heart but pity and comtempt. How this is a demonstration of love strikes me as a twisting of morality so contorted as to warrant my avoidance.But I am a hell bound atheist with no beauty in my impoverished soul so what can one expect eh?Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

schrafinatorPerhaps I do. I can appreciate the feeling of abysmal emptiness that must coincide with the loss of a worldview so long held and so cherished.I once held such a stance myself though not of the biblical worldview.

The son did it willingly Sidelined. He volunteered to do it. No one forced him. Would it be insane to volunteer so? I think not - for we can all agree that "greater love hath no man than that he lay down his life for another".Well maybe in real life we can agree - just not at EvC. In real life we usually call them heros. Not mad men. If you can't see bravery, courage and in what the son decided to do then there is indeed no (visible to me) beauty in your "impoverished soul" Funny you should say it that way: impoverished soul - it ties in with the "blessed are the poor (or impoverished) in spirit (or soul) for they will inherit the earth" Pity you don't really see it that way but were only saying it in jest.As it is, you're mocking a straw god. The son is as much God as is the father. The Father sacrificed his son and punished him instead of us. God punished God. God punished himself.

That is consistant. You have little option FC and I must say it is the healthier of the myriad of options available to you. At least you won't get sucked up by a false religion or a cult.If you ever go looking however and you are wondering where to begin then you could do worse than check Him out. If you are as sure of your intellect as you say. Sure so as to know you won't be fooled by horseshit then you could do worse than ask him to help you find him. Long before you get to that point (if ever) it may be that your heart (rather than your head) finds it wants him (even if you don't know its him your looking for). He will work with that want. That's all he really wants - is for you to want him - even if you don't know him (like how can you know him before you know him - that'd be intellectually ridiculous!).You'll know if/when you get there. You won't mistake it - for your intellect will find itself satisfied. You'll realise then that it wasn't before.

You sure? And what % sure are you? A like Schraf I pose the same question to you as I did her. What's a Christian PY. And does living "like one" make one one Hey mine went Beep too! You get born - you get faith that your brain is feeding you objective information (you weren't really all that certain there were no objective above. But you have faith that there are). You get born again and you get faith that your brain...You don't give it to yourself in either case. You couldn't no matter how hard you tried. But it is not about trying. That'd be a worksy sort of salvation but not the one I'm talking about. Faith is a consequence of being born (again)