Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,909 Year: 4,166/9,624 Month: 1,037/974 Week: 364/286 Day: 7/13 Hour: 2/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creationism/ID as Science
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 249 (344152)
08-28-2006 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by mitchellmckain
08-15-2006 8:10 PM


Re: It is rhetoric not science
Science has long ago restricted its subject matter to what is objectively observable and measurable for good reason. It is the reason for the modern success of science. This restriction is essential and must be defended.
I wish that science actually did restrict itself to objectively observable and measurable conclusions.
For example. A fossil is found, the evolutionist assumes it's biologically related to a "simpler" form of life (though there is no objectively observable evidence to lead to such a conclusion). The ID theorist simply concludes that it must have had an intelligent source, due to the type of complexity it contains.
Science is far from restricted to the objectively observable.
Edited by Hughes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by mitchellmckain, posted 08-15-2006 8:10 PM mitchellmckain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ReverendDG, posted 08-28-2006 3:16 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 137 by Percy, posted 08-28-2006 8:45 AM Hughes has replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 249 (344184)
08-28-2006 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ReverendDG
08-28-2006 3:16 AM


Re: It is rhetoric not science
no, you need to read more about how scientists relate fossils to each other, namely the structures of the animal, like bones, limbs,spine,if you want to go to lifeforms within a group such as whale ancsters they look at the body structures like teeth skull detail and how they relate to other lifeforms
Scientists relate fossils to each other. They don't *directly observe* their relationship in real time, they infer said relationship based on various other inferences that they assume to be accurate. Hence, the loss of "objectively observable and measurable conclusions" in science as we now know it. Not a straw man at all.
o explain to me oh IDist why our retina is backwards, why would anyone make our eyes less useful by placement? the fact that we have a blind spot makes it appear even more insane from an engineering prespective
Saying something isn't designed *well* means you admit that it was in fact designed by some intelligence in the first place. IS that what you intended to say?
Saying that something isn't designed well, in no way supports your point that it wasn't designed at all. I live in the NW USA and we've had two bridges SINK, in just my lifetime. This doesn't indicate that they weren't designed, does it?
this isn't science this is a mockery of science, when you claim that complexity shows intelligentice you have ask who is the designer? he's complex who designed him? ad nausum till you reach the final designer which is a GOD or most cases THE god of christianity..
And that is religion and not science!
How can it be a mockery of science when science is restricted to questions it can test? In other words, detecting whether something is designed or not, *is* within the grasps of scientific inquiry.
Detecting whether God exists or not, is outside this scope, so why assume any answer is mocking science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ReverendDG, posted 08-28-2006 3:16 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by nator, posted 08-28-2006 9:06 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 139 by Percy, posted 08-28-2006 9:09 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 148 by ReverendDG, posted 08-29-2006 4:58 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 150 by Parasomnium, posted 08-29-2006 7:18 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 151 by fallacycop, posted 08-29-2006 7:29 AM Hughes has not replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 249 (344447)
08-28-2006 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Percy
08-28-2006 8:45 AM


Re: It is rhetoric not science
What you actually mean to say is that the IDist interprets the fossil in an ID context, i.e., within the context of ID theory, for which there is no evidence whatsoever. There is no evidence of any artifacts of a design and implementation or manufacturing process, nor is there any evidence of an entity that designs and creates suns, planets and life.
In order for creationism/ID to qualify as science, you have to explain how it possesses the necessary qualities of science, such as deriving from observation and/or experiment, being tentative, and being replicable.
--Percy
There is plenty of evidence of design. Ever read Denton's book? He describes a cell and it's manufacturing processes.
ID doesn't need evidence of an entity. Rather all that is needed is the same evidences that an archeologist uses, or a forensic scientist needs, for ID to be science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Percy, posted 08-28-2006 8:45 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-28-2006 10:08 PM Hughes has replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 249 (344450)
08-28-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by nator
08-28-2006 9:06 AM


Re: It is rhetoric not science
Is the weather "intelligent"?
uh...no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by nator, posted 08-28-2006 9:06 AM nator has not replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 249 (344453)
08-28-2006 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Percy
08-28-2006 9:09 AM


Re: It is rhetoric not science
The open mind that I think most of us attempt to have about creationism/ID is tempered by the record of unscientific behavior by the creationist/IDist community, primarily their continual efforts at making end-around runs of the scientific process by taking their arguments to state legislatures and boards of education instead of to journals and conferences.
So if you think the tenets of creationism/ID are falsifiable and scientifically based upon replicable observation and evidence, all you have do is describe this for us.
--Percy
Unscientific behaviors are apart of life. Both evolutionists and creationists have made these mistakes.
What does continue to trouble me is the idea that one's motivation is considered as evidence for or against a scientific claim. In other words, instead of simply analyzing the data, the person who is seen as a "YEC" (for example) therefore anything he says is called into question because he has "questionable" motives.
So what? Who cares what motives someone has? If they have data to back up their claims, what does the mailman's motives have to do with anything?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Percy, posted 08-28-2006 9:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 8:33 PM Hughes has not replied
 Message 144 by Percy, posted 08-28-2006 8:42 PM Hughes has not replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 249 (344601)
08-29-2006 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dr Adequate
08-28-2006 10:08 PM


There is plenty of evidence of design. Ever read Denton's book? He describes a cell and it's manufacturing processes.
You do not say how a mere description of a cell is evidence that that cell was designed rather than evolved.
"Mere" description of a cell by a micro-biologist. Quite a over simplification there.
How many manufacturing plants have you seen that evolved using natural processes?
But this is exactly what you don't seem to have.
Moreover, if this is the standard we're using, then archaeologists and forensic scientists both know the difference between a designed artifact and a living creature (or the remains of one). Digging up a pot, an archaeologist asks "Who made it, and why"; he does not ask this question when he digs up the shinbone of an antelope. The ability to tell a manufactured device from a natural one is, indeed, a necessity in his field: do you mean to claim there is no such distinction?
Of course there's a distinction between animals and artifacts. The point is very simple. An archeologist is able to determine with great accuracy what is from an intelligent source and what is not. That is all.
The question is ID science. And if Forensics is science, so is ID.
If Archaeology is science, so is ID.
The same principles are used to detect what came from an intelligent source or not.
If you wish to say that ID is not science, then neither are those two practices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-28-2006 10:08 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-29-2006 4:24 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 149 by ReverendDG, posted 08-29-2006 5:06 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 153 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 9:38 AM Hughes has replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 249 (344660)
08-29-2006 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Dr Adequate
08-29-2006 4:24 AM


How many manufacturing plants have you seen that evolved using natural processes?
Ah, petitio prinicipii. If you mean to include cells among "manufacturing plants", then I've seen billions of 'em.
Yes, I mean Cells. And no, even you can't claim to have seen them evolve (as in come alive). You can infer their origins based on data you can collect. This is a far cry from observing those origins. I call it faith.
ID does not consist of asking the question of whether organisms are designed, which is a legitimate scientific question to which the answer is "no"; rather, ID consists of pretending that the answer is "yes".
If as you say, it's a "legitimate" scientific question. How is it that you *know* the answer? How sure are you that your answer is correct? Are you absolutely positive? 100% sure?
Hmmm...sounds less and less like science and more and more like a commitment to an article of faith to me.
You may describe ID however you wish. But, from what I've understood, the ID theorist takes the same data, the so called: "mountains of evidence" and re-interprets it in light of new information. Asking the question is this designed or not (by an intelligent source), doesn't mean it's not scientific, as you said. But concluding that the possibility that these manufacturing plants (Cells) which are magnitudes smaller and yet more complex than our own manufacturing plants, cannot have an intelligent source is non-science?
That’s boggles the mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-29-2006 4:24 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 11:46 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 163 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-29-2006 5:46 PM Hughes has not replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 249 (344665)
08-29-2006 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by ReverendDG
08-29-2006 4:58 AM


Re: It is rhetoric not science
the fact that ID says complexity=design and some how the intellience designed things like this? is my question can you answer why a being able to design living systems would screw-up so much?
ID says “irreducible complexity = design” not the same as what you stated. Your hang up is that you then assume a whole litany of things about the designer, that he can’t screw up, that those things he designed can’t change or be affected negatively by its environment. None of these extra rules you place on the designer and his product, are necessary.
Saying that something isn't designed well, in no way supports your point that it wasn't designed at all
but it does, a being able to produce life should be able to produce good designs that work without so many problems, since really why is the only question since ID knows nothing about how things are done.
Your forcing a “should” on a scientific inquiry? A morality that you’ve assumed exists, which is completely arbitrary. Who says a designer *Ought* to do anything? What moral law are you referring to?
Further, your question disallows the effects of time and history on the original design. It’s quite possible that good designs were produced in the beginning, but were corrupted somehow along the way through the expanse of time.
as i said you have to come down to god that is not designed and ID doesn't work, because a god is complex so it would be designed, but god is the only thing not designed isn't it?
this is not workable it isn't falsifible, so its not science.
Any theory has limits. Even your beloved evolutionary one. For example, where did matter come from? Where did the laws of physics come from? If a singularity caused it, what caused the singularity? If a singularity is the supposed suspension of laws of physics, then that must mean it’s not science too right?
At some point, any theory of origins has to posit an uncaused entity or event.
And no, I’m not here trying to scam anyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ReverendDG, posted 08-29-2006 4:58 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by ReverendDG, posted 09-05-2006 3:12 AM Hughes has not replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 249 (344752)
08-29-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ReverendDG
08-29-2006 5:06 AM


how does a manufacturing plant relate to biological structures? they are nothing alike
According to Michael Denton they are similar.
how can you tell something is designed by an intelligence?
I think this is a good question.
How can the SETI project tell if they have a signal from space that has an intelligent source?
How can an Archeologist tell if it has an artifact that is man-made?
How can a Forensic scientist determine that a murder occured and not an accident?
The principles used in these disciplines are the same used to tell if if something, anything is originated from an intelligent source or not.
sorry but those do not work, both forensics and archaeology have to do with man-made things, by definiton since we are human we *KNOW* if something is man-made by the very fact that we are humans, so we have a refrence about this, what criteria can we use to define a biological thing as designed and one that is not?
Like I said, the principles are the same. And with the SETI project, no, we don't have the knowledge that they are human. So, while you *want* to wave your hand and have this evidence disapear, it will only become more of a problem, not less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by ReverendDG, posted 08-29-2006 5:06 AM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 3:02 PM Hughes has replied
 Message 162 by fallacycop, posted 08-29-2006 5:25 PM Hughes has not replied
 Message 237 by ReverendDG, posted 09-05-2006 3:46 AM Hughes has not replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 249 (344754)
08-29-2006 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Parasomnium
08-29-2006 7:18 AM


Re: Design does not imply a designer
But evolution is also a very adequate way to arrive at design. It may not be very quick, and it may not always yield good or sensible design (although at times it's just plain brilliant, far better than any human intelligence could ever hope to achieve), but it yields design nonetheless.
I'd like to see a test of this theory, or better stated. How would you falsify this proposition?
Because I disagree. I see no evidence indicating that evolution has the power to create even the most powerful super-computer.
Moreover, this is not just a vacuous claim: it has been demonstrated in computer models of the process of evolution. Random mutation and selection are things that can be modeled very accurately on a computer, so that the process taking place in these models is not just a simulation of an evolutionary process, but is in fact the real thing, i.e. a real form of evolution takes place on whatever object these models evolve.
Yeah right. Vacuous is what it is. Computer models are only accurate if the input data is accurate. No guarantee of that, now is there?
Sorry had to respond, even though this isn't on topic...back to is ID Science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Parasomnium, posted 08-29-2006 7:18 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 2:39 PM Hughes has not replied
 Message 161 by fallacycop, posted 08-29-2006 5:21 PM Hughes has not replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 249 (344845)
08-29-2006 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Percy
08-29-2006 9:38 AM


This is your evidence? Drawing an analogy or metaphor between manufacturing plants and cells is your evidence that cells were designed?
Analogy's are tools used to help us see things we might not have seen otherwise. I'm using it here as a way to expose the principle used by ID theorists, that of detecting design in a cell, much the same way we'd detect design if we looked at a manufacturing plant.
Analogies always break down, and limited in their explainitory power.
Is it evidence? No, it leads us to evidence.
For ID to be a legitimate scientific theory it must be falsifiable, its supporting evidence that has been gathered through observation and experiment must be replicable, and it must create an interpretational framework of understanding that is consistent with and explains the evidence as well as making accurate predictions of future discoveries.
All of this is true, and I'm sure some ID believing scientists are working on it. In fact, it appears that some here believe it to be falsified already.
And Just as Darwin stated:"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
ID states (No reference, put this together from my understanding): If it could be demonstrated that any irreducible complex structure existed, which can be formed by numerous, successive, slight modification, then the theory of ID would absolutely break down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 9:38 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 8:16 PM Hughes has not replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 249 (344856)
08-29-2006 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Percy
08-29-2006 11:46 AM


When we see cells go from one generation to the next all we observe is the evolutionary process in miniature, with reproductive errors being passed on to offspring and then selected by the environment. How does ID reinterpret this data to conclude design?
This observation or data doesn't support decent with modification (without vast amounts of extrapolation). It does however contain evidence for an intelligent source for said processes. Such evidence includes and is not limited to the communication process (Message->encode->transfer->Decode->Asimilate), and the vast array of irreducible complexities that boggle the mind.
Or when we examine the diversity of life and the nested hierarchy of interrelatedness, how does ID reinterpret this data to conclude design?
Where Decent with Modification (DwM) groups things together, as if there was some biological connection. ID holds no need to show things are grouped together, and biologically related. For example, Chimps may be 4% different, genetically from Humans, yet this fact is largely irrelevant, and not especially useful in anyway. Similarities and differences are simply what they are, based on the designs found in the genes.
So, while evolutions go to great pains to "connect the dots" ID only connects the dots that indicate intelligence was at work. Sure, animals can be grouped according to different systems and similarities. However, no amount of grouping is evidence of a biological connection.
Or when we examine the fossil evidence, how does ID reinterpret this data to conclude design?
Again, Darwin needed vast amounts of time for his theory to work. He needed the fossil record. ID doesn't require or need any particular order or not. It's focus is on the most difficult evidence for darwin to explain. All the other supposed evidences are easily reinterpreted in light of this new knowledge.
For example. What does a fossil tell us? That an animal died, and that it died suddenly. What does the fossil record tell us? That many animals died in the past, suddenly. Not much if any biological information can be gleaned from the fossil record. So many times scientists think they've got something, only to be proven wrong when a "living fossil" is found (a living example, of what was once thought extinct).
The vast amounts of extrapolation and inference found in evolutionary theory are thrown out, as unsupported and unfalsifiable.
In other words, what evidence should we seek in the genome for the handiwork of the designer?
This is an interesting question. I don't have a good answer. But, I'd speculate that a language of cells might indicate something about the originator of that language.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 11:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 8:30 PM Hughes has not replied
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-30-2006 1:41 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 174 by Parasomnium, posted 08-30-2006 3:30 AM Hughes has replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 249 (344961)
08-30-2006 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Percy
08-29-2006 3:02 PM


How can the SETI project tell if they have a signal from space that has an intelligent source?
Good question. Do you know how they do it? Are you saying that ID uses the same techniques as SETI for identifying something of intelligent origin? Can you provide some examples of ID applying these techniques?
Yes, ID does use the same principles. For example:
There is also the problem of knowing what to listen for, as we have no idea how a signal sent by aliens might be modulated, and how the data transmitted by it might be encoded. Narrow-bandwidth signals that are stronger than background noise and constant in intensity are obviously interesting, and if they have a regular and complex pulse pattern are likely to be artificial.
Search for extraterrestrial intelligence - Wikipedia
SETI mentions regular and complex pulse pattern, which are an indication to these scientists that they are from an artificial source. ID identifies irreducible complex structure, as being sourced from an artificial source.
Are you going to lead us to this evidence? Sometime before the end of this thread, perhaps? (Threads at EvC Forum are closed when they reach 300 posts.)
And 2 and a half pages of which are guys arguing over Newtonian physics. Ha ha ha ha!!!
I'm doing the best that I can (admittedly I'm no scientist).
So while that's very good that "ID believing scientists are working on it," that means that ID doesn't yet possess the necessary qualities of science. This means the answer to the question posed by this thread's title concerning whether creationism/ID is really science is "no" at this time, but it poses another question about why ID is being promoted as science, for instance by the Discovery Institute and at Dover, at a point in time when it does not possess the necessary qualifications.
And when Darwin wrote his non-pier reviewed book, was it science? And was it the Institute that promoted ID in the classroom or misguided school board members?
You just finished conceding that ID doesn't possess the qualities of science at this time, so it can't be a theory. It can at best be a hypothesis, and a poor one at that since it has no supporting evidence. Behe's idea of irreducible complexity has been prominently falsified, and Behe himself put the final nail in the coffin of his scientific reputation when he testified at Dover. I'm sure Behe thanks God every night for tenure.
But irreducible complexity is as close as you've come to evidence so far. We can discuss it if you like. You could start by providing a brief description of irreducible complexity.
I've conceded no such thing.
Evidence as I see it right now.
- Irreducible complexity - (on Widipedia) :"Irreducible complexity is the controversial idea that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved naturally from simpler, or "less complete", predecessors, usually based on the idea that a structure's constituent parts would be useless prior to their current state. An "irreducibly complex" system is defined as one that could not function if it were any simpler, and therefore could not possibly have been formed by successive additions to a precursor system with the same functionality."
- Communication systems - As I mentioned, Message->encode->transfer->Decode->Asimilate (or feedback). As seen in the genetic transfer of information from one generation to the next, and from one cell to the next. Such complex communication indicates an intelligent source. Communication or transference of information is only found to originate from intelligent agents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Percy, posted 08-29-2006 3:02 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Wounded King, posted 08-30-2006 3:20 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 173 by Wounded King, posted 08-30-2006 3:22 AM Hughes has not replied
 Message 175 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-30-2006 4:25 AM Hughes has not replied
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 08-30-2006 7:08 AM Hughes has not replied
 Message 177 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-30-2006 7:37 AM Hughes has not replied
 Message 179 by ramoss, posted 08-30-2006 8:49 AM Hughes has not replied
 Message 181 by RAZD, posted 08-30-2006 7:29 PM Hughes has replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 249 (345263)
08-30-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Dr Adequate
08-30-2006 1:41 AM


The theory of evolution did indeed need for genetic tests to show that life could be grouped by genetic cladistics. And this is what the tests show. Chalk one up to Darwin. You, however, boast that Intelligent deign is superior because it makes no reference to this evidence.
The genetic tests are more tautology than "evidence" supporting evolution. In other words, these animals have similar morphology, and oh look, they also have similar genetics. Wow! What a claim, Darwin was right (oh, wait, did Darwin claim anything about genetics? Not that I remember).
You say that Darwin required vast periods of time. Very true. And it has been proved that those vast periods of time have elapsed. Another successful prediction from my main man Charlie.
First, and remember this through-out this argument, ID doesn't care, you can have billions of years, evolution will never be able to create anything close to the complexity we observe happening today. However, that said, no one, not one has ever "Tested" time. It can't be done. It hasn't been proven that any amount of time has past. Never, not even close.
Again, you can have all the time you need. Doesn't help Darwin one bit.
But, consider.
All the supposed tests that are referenced, are tests of something else entirely (vibration, leakage, etc.), not Time.
For example, what exactly is Time that you can claim to have tested it? What is it's substance? Where do we see it, what is it's nature? It's simply ridiculous to make such claims.
The most common claim is that the Geologic column proves vast amount of time has past. Yet, Geologists use "Index fossils" to date the rocks, and Paleontologists use the Geologic column to date the fossils. A classic case of circular reasoning. Which came first the fossil or the column?
As you probably are familiar with the concept of Calibration. If your instruments aren't calibrated correctly, your measurements will be off, and will lead to false data. Calibration is always done by comparing a known to be accurate tool, to one that needs to be calibrated. On the topic of time, it's fair to ask, how is it even conceivable to calibrate a million year or even a billion year old measuring device?
You know your clock is off?
nope.
Well it is.
How do you know?
I looked at mine....
You say that Darwin required the fossil record to back him up. And it did. Score another point for Darwin. When he wrote, no-one had seen an intermediate form in the fossil record. Yet, obedient to the theory, there turned out to be thousands of them.
Depending on the definition of transitional, and the imagination of the believers. Is a fossil transitional or not is up for debate, and I'm sure that's not the topic of this thread...
Sherlock Holmes: This man has been shot!
Inspector Lestrade: No, he's been struck down by God.
Sherlock Holmes: I think you'll find he's been shot. In fact, let me take this pair of long-bladed tweezers, and, there, you see, there's the bullet!
Inspector Lestrade: Well then, my theory is better than yours, 'cos your theory needs there to be a bullet.
Sherlock Holmes: No, my theory is superior to yours, because my theory needed there to be a bullet and there was one.
Here's how I would characterize the debate:
Sherlock Holmes: This man has been shot!
Inspector Lestrade: No, he's been struck down by natural forces.
Sherlock Holmes: I think you'll find he's been shot. In fact, let me take this pair of long-bladed tweezers, and, there, you see, there's the bullet!
Inspector Lestrade: Well then, at least my theory is science, yours is not, because you invoke non-natural causes.
Sherlock Holmes: No, my theory is superior to yours, because my theory followed the evidence where it led.
(1) A fossil is not evidence that an animal died "suddenly". What on earth gave you that idea?
(2) The fossil record does not merely tell us that "an animal died". It tells us the form of that animal, or at least its hard parts. This allows us to test the fossil record against the predictions of the theory of evolution.
(3) I have no idea what point you are trying to make about "living fossils", but their existence is certainly not evidence against the theory of evolution, since that theory does not predict that such organisms will not exist.
1) If an animal dies and lays on the ground, other organisms or animals eat the body. Or it decomposes and all that is left are bones if you're lucky. An animal that is buried quickly is fossilized intact, as is protected from predators and the elements. Not that it matters.
2) It does tell us about the hard parts of the animal. Limited amounts of information is gleaned. Hence the vast amounts of imagination required to make up stories and pictures for evolutionary tales, based on very little actual factual data. Testing of a biological theory using fossils? Limited at best.
3) Remember the coelacanth, thought to be extinct, not for thousands of years, but for millions of years (about 65 milllion, to be exact), that was discovered in 1938 off the Comoro Islands in the Indian Ocean, and also near South Africa. And of course this isn't evidence against evolution because of it being a philosophy, and being able to change like a chameleon. Fact of the matter is that scientists had used the Coelacanth fossil evidence of a transitional form, before this discovery. Scientists thought that it walked along the bottom, and also theorized it started to walk on land. Funny thing when they actually observed the living fish, they had the fossil upside down, what they thought were legs, were actually on top of the fish. But, no of course this isn't evidence against evolution power to explain or theorize at all. No. Evolution is still as strong as ever, claiming to explain all sorts of mysteries of fossils. (Ignore that man behind the curtain!)
However, Intelligent Design is not completely unfalsifiable. Although it is void of predictions in geology or natural history, it is incompatible with events that we know actually happened.
Wait, which events is it incompatible with? Do tell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-30-2006 1:41 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by anglagard, posted 08-30-2006 10:12 PM Hughes has not replied
 Message 185 by Percy, posted 08-31-2006 12:50 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 187 by fallacycop, posted 08-31-2006 1:34 AM Hughes has replied
 Message 190 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2006 7:48 AM Hughes has replied

  
Hughes
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 249 (345481)
08-31-2006 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Wounded King
08-30-2006 3:20 AM


As seen in the genetic transfer of information from one generation to the next, and from one cell to the next.
Can you specifically tie the steps of that process to DNA replicaton either transgenerationally or in a cell lineage. The only bits I can see are some decoding followed by some transfering, it doesn't seem to be a congruent system.
TTFN,
WK
I don't know if I can "specifically" tie steps together to your satisfaction. Not being a micro-biologist. I have studied communications, and the principles are the same, based on descriptions I've read. Here is but one example of cellular communication.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Wounded King, posted 08-30-2006 3:20 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Percy, posted 08-31-2006 4:30 PM Hughes has replied
 Message 195 by Wounded King, posted 08-31-2006 6:16 PM Hughes has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024