Limits on Abortion

So you want to launch a police investigation into every miscarriage?

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Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

The women you're going to force to give birth don't see it that way.But, look, NJ, if you haven't bothered to think through the consequences of the policies you promote, how is that anybody's problem but your own? I'm not asking you to do anything but think through the consequences. They go far, far beyond saving "innocent lives." The policies you're talking about ruin lives and punish innocent women. You were setting out to ban abortions, though. "Make the procedure illegal." That's what you said. But it turns out that there's a lot of ways to cause an abortion - many of them we don't even know about. Spontaneous abortions, after all, do occur. I'm asking you to tell me where the evidence leads, in this case. What constitutes proof of elective abortion, in your view? That's all I'm asking. Why do you insist on avoiding these questions?Because you don't have answers? Can you blame us for being reticent to implement your policies when it's pretty clear you haven't thought through the consequences beyond stopping a few abortions?

Rape can also include the forced penetration of the vagina (or other orifice) by an object.An unwanted fetus forces itself upon the woman, and rather relentlessly.All I am doing is drawing the parallel between "classic" rape and the forced penetration and co-opting of a woman's sexual organs by an unwanted fetus for it's gratification. Agreed. That makes the definition incomplete, so we should include fetus rape too eh?(Traditionally men don't have abortions either ... )Edited by RAZD, : agreed

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Ni, you simply make it illegal to conduct the procedure. If any one is discovered then they can go to prison for the proscribed amount of time.

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But juggs, this is MURDER in the first degree, isn't it? Why wouldn't law enforcement use fake clinics and pose as doctors to sting people planning to commit premeditated murder?Are you willing to send 13 year old incest victims to prison for decades, or life?Are you willing to send mothers and fathers to prison as accessories to murder?

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I think the best and most practical way to handle it is the same way as law enforcement deals with drugs. They don't nearly go after the user as heavily as they do the provider.

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But, are you willing to send a 13 year old molestation victim to prison because she planned and carried out a premeditated murder?Because this is what you are calling abortion. Premeditated murder.Right?

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But then again what do you think should happen to people who stick coat hangers in there own child's face? What would you do if you saw someone stabbing a newborn in the head with sharp metal object?

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If you really believe that aborting a fetus is exactly the same as stabbing a newborn in the face with a sharp metal object, then why all the pussy-footing around my questions, juggs?If you really believe that when the 13 year old incest victim had the illegal abortion, she performed premeditated murder that is equivalent to stabbing a newborn infant in the head, then you should have no qualms about stating unequivocally that you would throw her ass in prison for the rest of her life.

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I think most people who endorse abortions haven't the faintest clue of what it truly entails.

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I think most people who advocate for forced pregnancy and childbirth haven't bothered to think for a single moment about the ramifications of such a thing.

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Its just been so embedded in the culture that we have dehumanized them and prefer to believe they are really just some amorphous blob of well formed cells. It quite sad really.

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So, since most fertilized eggs never implant in a woman's uterus, should we begin to collect all women's menstrual discharge to search for those precious babies?

hijacking is the word you're looking for, not rape.

I don't think you understand what Crashfrog is really asking here...or maybe it's me...but what I think he's trying to get across is this:You have pregnant women at the top of the stairs. Because of people like you, NJ, abortions are now illegal. Now, this women really doesn't want to have a baby so she purposefully throws herself down the stairs in an attempt to have a miscarriage. How would examining her uterus determine if she purposefully threw herself down the stairs or not? Get it? How will you find out if she accidentally tripped or if she fell on purpose?So what I think Crashfrog is trying to get across is that are numerous ways one could feign a miscarriage quite legally. And under your proposed idea...every instance in which a miscarriage occurred would have to be investigated as murder.

Prosecuting for murder women desperate enough to throw themselves down stairs in the hope of miscarrying seems unnecessarily harsh to the point of evil.I suspect most anti abortionists would not go that far. They would just make the act of abortion by chemical or medical operation methods illegal.However that would certainly lead to the sort of desperate methods of aborting being described (coathangers, stairs etc.) being used which is something any anti abortionist should consider carefully.Unless you believe in a soul there is no real reason to be absolutely anti abortion (the exact time limits might still be up for debate however).
We cannot have medical practices defined or restricted by faith in the existence of non physical, unprovable notions of an ethereal soul.

I agree...so let's not make abortions illegal and the point becomes moot. I agree that perhaps "most" wouldn't go that far...but Crashfrog's example still holds. Anyway, "most" is not my concern..."whom" (or should that be "who"...I can never get those two right) is my concern. Well, apparently they don't care. But that is not the case even now. Hell, just look at the cervical cancer vaccination as an example. Why is that even being debated? Religion...that's why.

We seem to basically agree so we will have to see what NJ comes back with as regards Crashfrogs scenario. If NJ (and other anti abortionists) really would support the jailing of women desperate enough to injure and mutilate themselves then that really is quite appalling. I am unclear what the law in the US actually is. I thought abortion was basically legalised even if somewhat controversially so???

No, not at all. Crash is trying to paint a picture that exists only his mind about the abortion gestapo stormtroopers of death who roam the streets looking for promiscuous women to investigate.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

In fact, this doesn't happen only in my mind; this is literally exactly what happens in societies that criminalize abortion. Women who have miscarriages for any one of a hundred reasons, or no reason, suddenly find themselves under intense and abusive prosecutorial scrutiny; rape as a crime nearly ceases to be investigated by police; female pre-natal care is ignored; preventable pre-natal disease among infants and newborns rises.When you force birth, you have parents who don't care that much about their children. Why would they? When you view pregnancy as a punishment for being promiscuous, you have a society that doesn't treat women as people. Why would they?NJ, what on Earth could be the possible benefit to society of forced birth? Why is it that you never do any research about the consequences of the things you advocate? I've never met anybody as reckless as you in that regard.

Crashfrog raises legitimate concerns. Look, NJ,by making abortions illegal, you would be forcing women to give birth against their will. You don't think some of them will go to extreme measures to prevent that? On planet do you live?And while you make jokes about "abortion gestapo stormtroopers", I think it's more than reasonable to assume that many many women who would have miscarriages (purposeful or otherwise) would indeed come under intense scrutiny by legal authorities. If you want to call them abortion gestapo stormtroopers, so be it.

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Excuse me? Your scenarios are ridiculous and I already explained them thoroughly. You asked me a ridiculous question about how we would know if a woman actually fell down the stairs or if she purposely induced an abortion as if not being able to determine it somehow means that it should remain legal. Sometimes people murder other people by throwing them down the stairs in an attempt that it will look like an accident. Should we allow people to throw others down a flight of stairs because we might not be able to tell? No, you simply follow the evidence.But all this aside, abortion is still legal. The OP was simply asking pro-lifers what circumstances would they allow an abortion. I gave one. You took this thread to another level.

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We don't ban cyanide because some people have used it for nefarious purposes, so why should plants be any different?

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Two different topics. Follow the dialogue, please. You said that women have been known to take plants in order to induce an abortion. Then you said, "Should we ban those plants?" I said, no, that would be like banning cyanide because some people have used it nefariously. My desire to have abortion banned is because it is tantamount to murder. I want to ban murder. And the way I see it, abortion is just another form of murder, whether its infanticide, patricide, matricide, suicide, or anything else that ends in the suffix cide. A spontaneous abortion is just a miscarriage. That would be like charging someone for drowning when they didn't force another person underwater. Its the intent. It always boils down to the intent. What are you talking about?! I've answered them. Somebody that intends on killing their own child is conducted like any other investigation. If there is trauma shown, that's a lead you follow. If there are large doses of natural toxins that are known to have been used in abortions in the past, that's a lead you follow. You would handle it like any other death. When somebody dies mysteriously, there is always an autopsy performed. If it can be demonstrated that the person in question did not die by accident or by natural means, then you know you have a murder on your hands. I've answered every single one of your ad hoc scenarios with practicality. Therefore, I can blame you. You must be doing it intentionally.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Juggs, I was wondering if you were planning on addressing my latest reply to you.Also, I would be interested in your comments on the report exerpts I posted above.Edited by nator, : No reason given.