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Author | Topic: Limits on Abortion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I already posted the reason why why back in message #43 of this thread.
A woman's risk of dying from abortion-related complications in this country (0.4 deaths per 100,000 procedures performed before eight weeks' gestation) is significantly lower than her risk of dying as the result of pregnancy or childbirth (seven deaths per 100,000 live births). You haven't commented upon any of the facts I listed there, in fact. Why is that? Oh, how many babies have you and the other members of your church adopted? How much campaigning for more liberal adoption laws have you done? Do you realize that 20,000 children age out of foster care every year? That means that they never got adopted by anybody. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
It is a fact that when one compares countries where abortion is currently legal and also where it is not legal, and typically a small family size is desired, there is little to no difference in the number of abortions performed.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
Do you have any links to data to back that up?
I was unable to find any particularly solid figures, about the best I could find was this, cross-referencing with this census, gives an approximate abortion rate for northern ireland of 3.2, compared with 17.8 for england/wales. The figure for Northern Ireland is, doubtless, an underestimate for the reasons given in the link, but it seems unlikely it's an underestimate by a factor of 5 or more needed to bring the figures up to the level observed in england/wales. Interestingly, the figures for scotland are much lower than england/wales but still a factor 4 larger than those in Northern Ireland.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: In studies on the feelings of women after an abortion, the overriding emotion they report is relief. The greatest predictor of any negative feelings after abortion are the woman's attitude towards abortion before she gets one Have a gander at this website, juggs. Page not found - Welcome to I’m Not Sorry I'm Not Sorry . Net
I made a choice to end two pregnancies. I made a choice to continue to give my two sons the time and attention that they deserve. I made a choice to not burden our family financially. I made a choice to spend more time with my husband and to help our relationship, as not only parents, but as lifetime partners, flourish. I don't regret my decisions and I'm not sorry. I am almost four years later, I have been happily married for almost 2 years now and we look forward to having children in a couple of years from now when we are capable of providing a stable home for a child. Life couldn’t be better. Pro-Choice! I AM NOT SORRY! I made my choice and I do not regret it and I know I never will. I am a better, more empathetic person because of it and so are those close to me. I have a college degree and a career, a happy and fulfilling marriage, and the promise that the conception of our first child will be a joyous occasion. I made my choice and because I know the importance of that freedom, I will always fight for others to have that same choice. Thaose are just a few of the dozens and dozens of stories there. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Here's my source, which I linked to previously:
Page Not Found | Guttmacher Institute
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So I take it you are in favor of prosecuting women desperate enough to mutilate and injure themselves in a bid to do anything but carry unwanted foetuses to term?
Surely people this desperate need help not condemnation?Your desire to punish is not only heartless, it is inhuman and immoral. Does your video and therefore your argument (such as it is) apply to an embryo a few weeks old? I assume that the basis of all your abortion = murder beliefs are rooted in the existence of some sort of soul?If so should we divert valuable medical resource to saving the 'lost souls' of all those embryos that miscarry naturally very early on in pregnancy often without the mother even being aware she is pregnant? Do identical twins share a soul? What is the basis of your unshakable faith in your anti abortion stance and how does this stand up to critical and scientific scrutiny??
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Do not a lot of NI women wanting abortions come to other parts of the UK to gain access to this treatment.
Thus slanting the figures on both counts
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
Thank you.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
The figures given are for NI women coming to other parts of the UK for their abortions - I would hazard a guess this is the most common means to get an abortion for NI (and probably eire) women. After all it's free and safe.
As the link I gave points out, it's based on self reporting of address so is probably an underestimate. Which will skew the england/wales figures up and the NI figures down; however, the comparative size of the populations means the upward effect on the england/wales figures is likely to be small.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Which is not something we can speak of when it comes to defining personhood. Let's agree that the harm part of the proceedings is established in any case. If there is no {person} there is no harm to any {person}. Would you say that the natural loss of living skin cells (several hundred a day per person) is {harm}? There is no {person} harmed by such loss. Do we need to consider the skin cell? What is the difference between a living skin cell that is lost and a natural miscarriage of cells? Functionally there is no difference. On occasion there is need to dispense with more than a normal loss of skin cells for the health and well-being of a {person}, up to and including the removal of organs and limbs and the like. Do we need to consider the {harm} done to these organs and limbs and the like? What is the difference between an organ or limb or the like that is removed from the body of a {person} and an abortion of a group of cells? Functionally there is no difference. Some people hold to certain religious beliefs regarding medical practice where they chose not to have operations involving the removal of an organ or a limb or the like because it is against their religious beliefs, even when such a choice may kill them. That is their legal choice. Some people hold to certain religious beliefs regarding medical practice where they chose not to have operations involving the removal of an organ or a limb or the like performed on their living and breathing children because it is against their religious beliefs, even when such a choice may kill them. That too is their legal choice. Legally and ethically and morally and logically it is reasonable to allow people to make choices based on their religious belief, so long as they do not harm other {persons} in the process. Legally and ethically and morally and logically it is NOT reasonable to force people to make choices based on religious beliefs that they do NOT hold, as that DOES harm {people}. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
quote: This happens in countries that criminalize abortion: http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/GerriSantoro.jpg We were speaking about punitive measures in countries where abortion is illegal for those who attempt to conduct an abortion themselves. What we weren't talking about is the danger of trying to conduct your own abortion. "He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I am a Pro-Choice Christian. I believe that it is the responsibility of the individual to account for their actions before humanity and before God. I do not agree that fetuses are as lifeless as leaves blowing in the wind, however.
The problem with this world view is that it tells humans that we ourselves are just biological groups of cells who innately follow their instincts. The keywords between the liberal and conservative views are Freedom vs Responsibility and Autonomous control versus Obedience to absolute morality. On the one extreme, we have a generation of church going adult children who are scared to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. At the other extreme, we have a bunch of self willed adults who think that there is but one life to live and that humans have every right to engage in any sort of free expression that strikes their fancy with no regard to responsibility and consequence. In summation, I believe that abortion should remain legal. If murder is the cause, there are plenty of murders throughout the planet of adults that deserved a full life. Let the babies lives be the responsibility of Mothers who can freely choose the outcome.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Too much to talk about in Nem's latest post and, frankly, others are doing better than I. I just wanted to point out this little absurd gem:
quote: I appreciate how those aligned with the Pro-Life movement are always concerned about the all-too real dangers of human extinction Its not about extinction, Doc, its about nature. This is how we all got our start in life. You can't say, as RAZD did, that babies force themselves upon their mothers when nature is just doing what it does. Are you going to fault the fetus for doing nothing of its own volition-- either existing or deriving its nutrients from his/her mother? "He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8
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alacrity fitzhugh Member (Idle past 4319 days) Posts: 194 Joined: |
We were speaking about punitive measures in countries where abortion is illegal for those who attempt to conduct an abortion themselves. What we weren't talking about is the danger of trying to conduct your own abortion. Here you go: In Chilequote: In Brazil quote:In Nicaragua quote: El Salvador were abortion is illegal even when the womens life is at riskquote: For more go here-ABORTION LAWS OF THE WORLD six(sic)six
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
NJ, One could take the hate being directed at you as proof that you are correct. I mean, what is this about? This surely does not look to me like any kind of a rational response from a psychological perspective. You're right, it certainly is irrational. I don't know how to explain their behavior. The only way to understand it is that I suspect they get so rabid about the whole thing because in the dusty recesses of their psyche, they know damn well that they're wrong and it hurts.
You say basically,we are human beings from the moment of conception and the response sounds like I am listening to the prosecutors at the Salem Witch Trails. Like I said, I suspect that there is a battle warring within their own conscience.
Here have a look at this, lots of interesting research going on these days on prenatal memory and learning. Just a moment... Just a moment... Fetal memory: Does it exist? What does it do? So when scientists really look, they find more and more evidence of prenatal humanness. Boy! That must scare the crap out of the pro- abortion crowd. Watch the attacks begin. I remember a Time magazine had an article about this about three or four years ago. The picture was worth a thousand words. Apparently this doctor was performing preemptive surgery on a fetus who was found to have possessed some degenerative disease. Obviously, in order to see inside the womb, a small camera was inserted inside. Once the cervix was dialated and he can place a few fingers inside, the baby grasped his thumb. This event was apparently a significant one for him, and I believe the photo won the Pulitzer Prize. The point is, I agree, with the advent of greater technology we are constantly realizing that the unborn are far more human than the pro-aborts would like to give credit for. However, I believe that a very large number of people who accept the pro-choice philosophy really do not have a strong grasp on what a fetus is or can understand the sociological and psychological impact this ignorance fosters.
P.S. You still don't know crap about geology. When I get a chance I'll get back to that forum and straighten you out. Don't hold back for me.... Tell me how you really feel. Have we ever engaged in a debate about anything geological? Its rare that I ever post any thing concerning geology. "He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. -Micah 6:8
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