|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: What you want to know about Christ. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Give me a verse which demonstrates God's 'thirst for blood'. You really should read the Bible sometime if you're going to have discussions about it. In addition to the aforementioned Flood that killed everything on Earth: Genesis 19:24
quote: Exodus 12:29
quote: The entire book of Leviticus, nearly, is devoted to instructing the Hebrews on how to make blood sacrifices. I literally can't quote it all - it's almost the entire book. The core fucking tenet of Christianity is that God sacrificed himself as Jesus to himself on the Cross. At minimum that is human sacrifice. At most it's also batshit insane. This took me 5 minutes. There's a lot more. A LOT more. The Hebrews in the Bible commit genocide after genocide in the name of God, with his supposed approval (killing all of the males and taking the women and female children as their "wives," for example. Can you say rape?). The god described in the Bible is literally one of the most bloodthirsty characters ever devised by the human imagination. Even Hitler, Stalin, and Mao combined have nothing on the deity that supposedly killed every living thing on the planet except for a family with some animals on a boat.
God created us, and has a right to take our life away. Thanks for admitting that he IS a bloodthirsty monster. After all, you wouldn't have to justify his mass murder this way if he wasn't in fact, a mass murderer. And by that same logic any woman should be able to kill their child - any time, at any age, for no reason, becasue she gave the child life, and so "has the right to take it away." Apparently your version of god is a sadistic little kid frying ants with a magnifying glass. While this certainly fits with the Biblical descriptions, the scary part is that you think that's just fine.
God gave Jonah free choice. He allowed him to get halfway across the world and then still allowed him the choice of whether or not to admit to causing the storm, the choice to obey after God saved him with a fish. "Do it or I'll make your life fucking miserable forever" is not a choice. That's what we call "force."
Pharoah did have that choice, but God knew already what his response would be. God knows all. If God knew Pharoah would let the Hebrews go, why would he harden Pharoah's heart so that he'd make them stay when the freaking goal was to give them freedom? If God knew that Pharoah would make the Hebrews stay, why would God need to harden Pharoah's heart? Are you dense? In this story, God specifically sets Pharoah up, using the Jedi Mind Trick to get him to say what God wants, so that God can rain plagues on Egypt and kill all of the firstborn children to flex his power muscle. He forced Pharoah to do what he wanted, then punished all of Egypt for Pharoah doing what God forced him to do, so that he could be "glorified." There's that kid with the magnifying glass again. "Look how great I am! Look what I can do!" Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
but it clearly wasn't change to fit a new doctrine if it was done during the same time period. Blatantly false if (as is the case) the time period in question had several different competing doctrines. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
her proposal was that as the church evolved over the course of 300 years, they just developed new books to fit their needs. if you can't see there difference between these two principles (this and that of competing contemporary doctrines) then i can't help you. No, THIS is what she said. Note the lack of the word "Church," or any mention of "300 years."
quote: The book of John is so entirely different in character to the other three Gospels as to suggest that the author had some very different beliefs, and individual details were added/changed to support the emerging doctrine. As the Christian religion formed and grew into more than a tiny cult, different schools of thought sprouted up (such as the Gnostics, for example). In other words, differences in texts appeared becasue of doctrinal differences. The determination of which set of beliefs would be the "official" one was not decided until much later (such that it was), and thus there were several competing systems of beliefs. Clearly, your statement:
but it clearly wasn't change to fit a new doctrine if it was done during the same time period. is false.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
In all three of these circumstances, the people had a chance to surrender to God and live. Noah preached for about 100 years to the people asking them to repent. None repented, but they had the choice. Abraham argued with God enough so that if there were even 10!!! good people in Sodom, then they would be spared. Pharoah had numerous chances to allow the Israelites out. But he declined. But even some of the Egyptians painted blood on their doorposts and were spared. All of Egypt could have done this. They were given the choice. Let's just start off by saying the Egyptians had no choice - their fate was decided by one man - Pharoah. And, of course, he was forced by God to deny the Hebrews their freedom. God, in this instance, set Pharoah up so that he'd have some "excuse" to perform some wanton slaughter. We know how much he loves blood. But aside from that, there are still a lot of problems with this idea of yours. First, you just said that killing people for not believing in your God is okay. That's pretty messed up. When the 10 Commandments include such things as "thou shalt not covet" and several Commandments aimed at prohibiting worship of other gods (or no god), and ALL are supposed to be worthy of death...well, let's just say I'm very happy we don't live in that society any more. As for good people in Sodom - the generally accepted "sin" of Sodom was homosexuality. So now it's okay to kill off an entire city becasue they're gay? When Lot is considered "righteous" after offering up his daughters to be raped by a mob who wanted to check out the new arrivals (God's angels), I don't have much faith in God's ability to discern righteousness. Oh, and in case you don't believe me (so many Christians haven't read the Bible, after all): Genesis
quote: Your position also ignores the scale of such an event. We're talking about an entire city - that means even children, even babies, who could not possibly have sinned, or "repented" if they had wanted to. This problem only gets worse with the Flood. Now we're talking about a global event, one that kills ALL animals and human beings. Even with 100 years of "preaching," Noah could never have gotten to all of the people in the world. But God kills them anyway. Even the children. Even the babies. Your "choice" philosophy is bunk, because even WITH choice most of the 10 Commandments don't deserve death. Even if I give you that one anyway, the rest is horseshit because God kills children and babies and lets Lot live after offering his two virgin daughters up to be raped. Are you not getting it yet? This is a pretty horrible moral guideline. Try applying any of this, any at all, to modern society. If you kill someone based on their religion, or becasue they were gay, what would that make you? You would certainly be supported by the Bible...but would you think it would be right?
Please do not use profanity. I have eliminated those words in the quote. Profanity has no bearing on my argument, and it's not against the forum guidelines, so I'll say what I like.
The sacrifice of the lamb is not merely for the sake of it. It points towards Jesus giving his life to save ours. And the idea that someone else can take your punishment for you is barbaric. It takes a sick fuck to kill a lamb because you stole an apple. It takes an even sicker fuck to advocate human sacrifice to atone for sins the sacrifice never committed. And it takes a crazy deity to sacrifice himself to himself when he's the one who made the rules in the first place.
'The Creator of the Universe would rather die for you than live without you.' (Thats a quote, but I'm not quite sure who said it). Think on that quote for a minute. So why die in the first place? If he's omnipotent, if he made the rule requiring death, he could just forgive us anyway and be done with it. The whole atoning self-sacrifice idea is silly.
In the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments were given to the Israelites by God. Anyone who breaks God's law is worthy of death. Lies do not deserve death. Stealing does not deserve death. Adultery does not deserve death. Worshipping another god does not deserve death. Etc.
A lamb had to die in their place for their sins, because Jesus hadn't come yet. So those sacrifices pointed to the ultimate Sacrifice-Jesus Christ, the Son of God. When Jesus died, he paid for all of our sins. 'The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6:23. Again, this is a barbaric and disgusting philosophy. The lamb doesnt deserve to die. Jesus, if he were truly sinless, didnt deserve to die. That makes his "sacrifice" murder, the one sin I could agree might deserve death. Besides that, he woke up 3 days later. That's not a sacrifice - that's a painful inconvenience in return for being worshipped for the next 2000 years. Small price.
He died so we could go to heaven. We, means anyone on this earth. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. It's a gift! All we have to do is accept it. That's what different about Jesus! If it was a gift, you wouldn't need to be preaching, would you. He could jsut let us all in. I mean, he makes the rules, right?
All we have to do is accept it. That's what different about Jesus! Most other religions include people earning their own Salvation. But God gives it to us for free! Why shouldn't we accept? Romans 10:9 'If you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raise him from the dead, you will be saved! It's that simple! God's grace is a free gift to all who take it. Not accepting is like refusing a birthday gift and saying 'I need to earn it.' Sounds silly, doesn't it? That's because it is. Accept God's gift! No,it's more like me, from the internet, telling you I want to give you $10,000,000 for your assistance transferring some funds from Nigeria. All I need is $100 (the Church wants your money too, after all) and a bunch of your time. Oh, and admit that the sky is purple with yellow polkadots. I'm just going to assume you have received one of those scam emails, and can make the connection.
God's people don't always do what God wants. This is wrong. 'Do not commit adultery.' 'Do not murder.' No-one on earth is perfect. This is exactly the reason we need God's grace. Without it, we would be dead. It is not God that causes these things, but Satan. The Bible says God specifically told the Isrealites to go kill people. Specifically, look at Jericho.
Without God, the whole reproduction process would not, could not happen. God has given us the ability to do so. But the mother is still a key component in the "giving of life" thing. By your twisted, sick logic, she would still have the right to kill her child.
God fully deserves our praise. For threatening us with Hell? For killing untold thousands in the Bible? For espousing barbaric, outdated philosophies like animal and human sacrifice? For forcing someone to disobey so that he can flex his killing muscle?! Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
he suggested that it may mean that God caused Pharoah's heart to be hardened because of what he did with the Israelites, not be directly hardening his heart. This is not supported by the text, which explicitly states that God hardens Pharoah's heart so that he will not let the Israelites go, so that God "will be glorified." It's about as unambiguous as you can get if you read the words on the page, gen.
I must admit that this is a confusing subject, and that some of what I have said about it may seem conflicting. It's only "confusing" if you're trying to bend and twist the text to justify a monstrous act. The task you've set yourself (justifying the Egyptian plagues culminating in the murder of the firstborn) is analogous to justifying the Holocaust. They are both inherently disgusting and horrifically immoral. I don't think your apologectics will resolve this conflict. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
'For the wages of sin is death...' Romans 6:23. 'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,' Romans 3:23. It doesn't matter who you are, if you live on earth, you have sinned, and you are not worthy of heaven, God and even life. This relies entirely on the amoral premise that anyone who worships someone other than the Judeo-Chrstian God, or covets another person's belongings, or makes an idol, is worthy of death. It relies on the retarded and amoral premise that, somehow, all of humanity bears responsibility for what two individuals supposedly did 6000 years ago, and that this great "crime" is worthy of death (the crime, of course, being mere disobedience over eating a fruit). The ridiculous Jewish/Christian guilt complex starts with faulty premises and runs them straight to their absolutely immoral conclusion.
So God has the right to take our lives because we have sinned, but He usually doesn't because of His love and grace. By this same idiotic logic, a parent should have the right to kill a child if the child disobeys even once, and the child lives only through the parent's "love and grace."
Death is never God's fault. Period. It is Satan's, and ours. If Lucifer had never become jealous of God, then he wouldn't have come to earth with sin. We don't have to do wrong, we choose to. Of course it's God's fault. He's the one who makes the damned rules! He could just say "Well, I didn't make you perfectly, so I forgive you." Or he could have, you know, not made ridiculously immoral rules that all carry a death sentence! And when God specifically slaughters all of the firstborn of Egypt as "punishment" for something he forced Pharoah to do, or when he floods the entire world, or commands the Hebrews to kill every man, married woman and male child (but take the unwed girls to be forced brides for raping), it's God's fault. No questions asked.
'For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, so that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.' John 3:16. God loves us so much that He died for us. Even if only one human had sinned, He still would have died. That's how much He loves you. He loves you so much that he sentences you to death for doing what he created you to do (we are incapable of never coveting what others have)? He loves you so much that he sends you to Hell (which the Bible explicitly states is an eternal lake of fire, not just a permanent death) if you don't believe in his particular fairy tale? He sacrifices himself to himself to pay the price he set in the first place, but resurrects himself after 3 days so that any "sacrifice" is more of a temporary, painful inconvenience? You're making statements that aren't supported by scripture, gen. You're not reading any of the text critically to see what it actually says, and you're wearing blinders to prevent you from seeing the atrocities. When you can't deny it, you try to say "well, it's okay if God does it," as if there is ever a justification for specifically murdering children or taking the girls of a defeated tribe as forced brides (in other words, they're going to be raped). Here's a little story: There's a woman, somewhere in the Southern US, who has a beautiful 6-year-old girl. She's happily married to a wonderful husband, and they are very active in their Church. In fact, the doctors told her a long time ago that she'd never have a baby - but they prayed and prayed, and God blessed them with their wonderful baby girl! Everyone agreed it was a miracle, and they thank God for their daughter every day. One day, the mother hears a voice from heaven. The voice tells her that she needs to take her daughter, who she loves very much, and draw a bath. She is then to drown her daughter as a sacrifice to God. The mother is very sad, because she loves her daughter. But she heard the voice of God, and her daughter was, after all, God's gift - He has the right to take it away. She draws a bath, and calls to her daughter. When the little girl asks her mother why she is crying, she lies and says she has something in her eye, but that it's bath time. Then she dunks her little girl's head in the water, and holds it there while she kicks and struggles. But wait! Suddenly she hears God's voice again, and this time the voice tells her that she's proven her faithfulness, and that she should stop drowning her daughter! She's so relieved to not have to kill her baby, and she thanks God for His mercy. She pulls the little girl from the water. She's coughing, and sputtering. She's absolutely terrified, becasue her own mother just nearly killed her. She's wet herself. For the rest of her life, she'll be terrified of any amount of standing water. She'll bear the emotional scars of being nearly murdered by her mother for the rest of her life. We would, of course, say that this woman had a mental disorder. Maybe postpartum depression, though 6 years is a bit late for that. The motehr would go to jail as soon as anyone found out about what had happened, her Church would pray for her while condemning her actions... ...all the while forgetting that God likes to do this sort of thing, as shown in Genesis 22:
quote: Think on that. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
I don't mean to be condescending, but this is same unassailable defense a child might use to defend the existence of their imaginary friend. That's not condescending. That's accurate. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
btw: Man doesn't have free will. Or at least he didn't have it after he chose to eat a certain fruit. But that's another story.) If man has no free will, that means that God created most people who have ever existed specifically for the purpose of throwing them in Hell for eternal torture. Predestination means that literally everything, from natural disasters to the Holocaust to individual atrocities are entirely God's fault, because he specifically caused it all to happen. It means your god is a petty, sadistic, evil fuck. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
The response is that yes, the Christian God is what Rahvin says, but since he’s in charge, you better obey anyway. It’s simple might makes right. The Christian is to keep him or herself complicit, because non-Christians go to Hell, whether they have integrity or not. Exactly. It's the single most abhorrent ethical system ever devised, and Christians like our friend Gen spend innumerable hours trying to twist it into something that sounds better. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
I wonder what has happened to our friend Gen. S/he seems to have disappeared around the time s/he was asked to provide biblical support for a few things. Maybe s/he has realised that the Bible is a little more complex than first thought. I think Gen expected to find a place to preach to a choir, like most Christian forums. This is a legitimate debate forum - we question beliefs, and some questions simply have unpleasant answers. I don't think Gen was ready or able to answer them, or even face them him/herself. Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024