Theologian63 responds to me:
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Perhaps because it wasn't a scheme at all. The serpent was simply telling the truth. Note that the serpent does not tell Eve to eat from the tree.
Telling the truth? What do you base this on?
The text. Have you not read it?
Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So here we see that god tells Adam directly not to eat from the tree or he'll die that very day.
Oh...we're about to get into a semantic argument, aren't we? You're about to say that text does not say, "that very day," and then you're going to pretend as if "in the day...thou shalt surely die" doesn't mean "that very day."
But that's a different argument. The point is that god says they're going to die. Eve seems to have gotten the message, too:
Genesis 3:2: And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So we have established that god wants Adam and Eve to believe that they'd die. In fact, the ante has gone up when we get to Eve...god only told Adam not to eat it. Eve seems to think she shouldn't even touch it.
Now, let's look at what the serpent says:
Genesis 3:4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And that's it. We never hear any more from the serpent. In Genesis 3:1, the serpent asks Eve about what she can eat, but he does not tell her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. Too, the serpent doesn't say anything about going ahead and eating from the Tree in 3:4 or 3:5.
Now then, what happens when Adam and Eve eat from the tree?
Genesis 3:6: And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
3:7: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Hmmm...Eve touched the fruit and didn't die. Now, we don't know where she got this idea about not touching the fruit, but that apparently was wrong. And when she ate it and gave it to Adam to eat, they didn't die then, either.
Instead, what happened? Their eyes were opened. We even hear god describe it:
Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
So it would seem the serpent was right. The serpent said, "your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
And what happens? Genesis 3:7 says their eyes opened and Genesis 3:22 has god saying they are as gods, knowing good and evil.
So by direct reading of the text, we find out that the serpent was telling the truth. If they ate from the Tree of knowledge, they wouldn't die. Instead, they'd become as gods.
And that's exactly what happened.
Now, some might say that Adam and Eve would have been immortal had they not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. This is belied by:
Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
What is the point of the Tree of Life if Adam and Eve were already immortal? Why does god panic over the two of them eating from the Tree of Life if they were already immortal?
The only logical conclusion is that Adam and Eve were going to die from the very beginning, the threat made by god was that they were going to die that very day if they ate from the tree, god was wrong in that claim, and the serpent was telling the truth.
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AS for Genesis not saying it was Satan- No kidding Sherlock.
Where else are we going to look for what Genesis means? Christians? What do they know about it?
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Since you are a non-believer you will NOT agree. See II Corinthians 4:4 to know why.
Oh, I get it...if I disagree with you, it's because I'm the disbeliever. It can't possibly be because you're mistaken.
That's a bit convenient, don't you think?
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Revelation calls Satan the serpent, a little "s" just like Genesis 3. see:Rev. 12:9 and 20:2.
Irrelevant. The serpent mentioned is not the serpent of Genesis but rather the dragon right there in front of them:
Revelation 12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 20:2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Where in these two passages do you find reference to the serpent of Genesis? That serpent was long dead. Instead, Revelation is referring to the "dragon." Dragons are reptiles and thus can be called "serpents."
But don't be so naive as to confuse the serpent from Genesis with the dragon from Revelation.
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WOW! You have a copy of the original Hebrew? I'm impressed. The Sinaiaticus, Vaticanus and Alexandranus manuscripts are all corrupted
by Gnosticism and Origen and take way from the blood atonement of Christ, His Deity and many other doctrines.
Um...and where do you think the KJV is translated from? It isn't like the scholars had it dictated to them in English by angels.Theologian63 writes:
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Why couldn't it mean "begin to die"?
Because that's not what it says. "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Besides, Adam and Eve were going to die, anyway. Otherwise, what was the point behind the Tree of Life? God panics over them possibly eating from it since they would become immortal.
"Become" immortal? That would mean they weren't immortal to begin with.
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Anyone who can read knows Adam and Eve lived many years after that
So why did god say, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" if he meant, "You will lose your immortality"?
What's the point of the Tree of Life if Adam and Eve were already immortal?
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So, either God lied or we don't understand the true meaning behind "thou shalt surely die."
Seems to be the former. There are so many indications that "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" means exactly what it appears to mean: You eat it and you die that day.
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If God lied He is a sinner and is in need of redemption and needs to accept His Son Jesus as His savior.
Have you considered the possibility that the character described as god in the Bible isn't really god? Perhaps the Bible is actually the work of the devil. Wouldn't that be the ultimate coup? Get people to think the devil is really god and god is really the devil. And the ultimate irony, all the hints are there: In one of the first interactions between god and Adam and Eve, this character called "god" lies to them and behaves in a very unjust manner, punishing innocents for something they had no control over. That doesn't sound like the embodiment of all good. So perhaps its actually the case that the Bible is a tool of the devil sent to corrupt people.
Just a thought....
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If you don't want to burn, TURN!
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, Theologian63. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!
Well, Bob, Theologian63 has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, Theologian63 gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.
But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.
You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you?
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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
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