Are we prisoners of sin

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do you not think that Gods law is a standard of perfection?

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No it is a standard of living for civilization.

what makes it imperfect?

Purpledawn you have no evidence to argue that what Paul taught isn’t what Christ taught. Paul was called by Christ himself his miraculous transformation from Christian slayer, Saul, to Christianities largest advocate, Paul, was facilitated by the converting power of Christ himself. Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Jesus himself promised that he would send us (Christians) the Holy Spirit, also known as the Spirit of Truth:

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

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Paul wrote what the Holy Spirit taught him that Jesus himself had send him, and you wouldn’t understand this as you don’t even believe in the existence of God or his power. You wouldn’t understand the function of the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ unless you have had a true conversion like the one that Paul experienced on the road to Damascus. Well any way the Holy Spirit is here to teach and to guide us (Christians), and to expose counterfeit gospels and lies about God’s word

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

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Therefore whatever Paul said God had already said in Heaven. The bible is God’s word, all of it whether he said it directly or whether he used men to say it. You have established beyond doubt that you do not to understand how God deals with the world in our age, and what the function of the church is. The church is also called the body of Christ, (1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and severally members thereof.; 1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid.) and for this reason if Christ, the ascended Christ the one, right now sitting on the right hand side of the father, if he longs to say something he will utilize his body (the church) to say it. Remember Christians make up the body of Christ and if God is going to to act in the world today he will use this body of Christ.

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What use has it been to commit so many years of your life to the bible if in the end all you would do is misread and corrupt it with your human ideas? Intellectual approaches to God’s word will not bare any fruit, since you need the Spirit of God to open it up for you. It is true, flesh cannot understand Godly principles and ideas, only the Spirit alone can reveal these truths to his church, and it is plain from how and what you have argued that you never had the Spirit of Truth residing in you. I apologize if I sound severe but it is the truth I’m speaking, natural men cannot understand the things of God for they are only revealed to spiritual men, men like Paul John, Timothy, Luke etc who had the Spirit of God dwelling on the inside of them.
Therefore when a Christian reads scripture, he does so prayerfully, allowing the Spirit of Truth to reveal truth. Finally read this verse Joh 3:12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?

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Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

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Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

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Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Any time someone says "don't think about it, just accept it," I know that person is either lying or a gullible fool.Unfortunately Cedre, I have confidence in your honesty.You just advocated blind acceptance, relying on "spiritual" guidance (ie, subjective "gut" understanding, relying on human internal rationalization) and discouraged critical analysis. The only thing you can possibly be selling wioth such a mindset is snake oil.

To answer that, you would need to tell me exactly what you consider to be God's law(s). Don't just say Ten Commandments, because there are two sets. Also explain why what you list is considered God's law(s).

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What use has it been to commit so many years of your life to the bible if in the end all you would do is misread and corrupt it with your human ideas? Intellectual approaches to God’s word will not bare any fruit, since you need the Spirit of God to open it up for you. It is true, flesh cannot understand Godly principles and ideas, only the Spirit alone can reveal these truths to his church, and it is plain from how and what you have argued that you never had the Spirit of Truth residing in you. I apologize if I sound severe but it is the truth I’m speaking, natural men cannot understand the things of God for they are only revealed to spiritual men, men like Paul John, Timothy, Luke etc who had the Spirit of God dwelling on the inside of them.
Therefore when a Christian reads scripture, he does so prayerfully, allowing the Spirit of Truth to reveal truth. Finally read this verse Joh 3:12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?

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The kicker here is that anything contrary to doctrine would not be considered appropriate, whether revealed through spirit or not. Mainly because there is no way to prove it was revealed through the spirit. But you seem to accept doctrine that is at times contrary to what is written in the Bible you supposedly hold so dear.Yes people can understand Godly principles. You do realize that flesh can't think, right? That's right up there with your idea that the "flesh" can't refrain from sinning. You're holding on to the sales pitch catch phrases and not looking at reality.You assume I don't believe in the existance of God. Why? Just because I don't agree with doctrines. As I showed earlier, disagreement with doctrine doesn't negate spirituality. It just spawns a new religion. I agree that Paul was inspired, but he's still not God. To present the idea that God is unchanging or that his law is perfect and unchanging and that the OT holds this information, but then also present a doctrine that uses words of Jesus and the writings of Paul to convince people that God's will has changed and Paul now knows what God's will is for his time and the future is fantasy.Read the book for yourself as a book, not bits and pieces spliced together to present another concept. Read what the authors are actually saying. The thing is you don't have to believe what I'm saying, you can check it out for yourself.God does not require us to blindly follow religious leaders. Even prophets had to prove that their words came from God. I don't recall that Paul provided such proof. Even the original disciples had difficulty with Paul's gospel.A thought from one of your other posts, you do realize that there are no original manuscripts of the books included in the Bible don't you?

You think being able to point at something and make a noise makes someone a genius? That's quite a claim! I must be all but omnipotent, I can make noises without even needing to point.

This does not follow.The innocence of a young child clearly points to a person without the capacity to decide what is right or wrong. Yes they were told "don't do that", but as you said they had the innocence of a child, so it's expected that someone with a child-like capacity will not follow all rules, their curiosity will get the better of them BECAUSE they did not know that disobedience was a bad thing.Further, naming animals, if this is really what you believe, is not that difficult a task and most children would be more than capable of naming things. Trust me my daughters name every single doll, toy animal or rock that they find. Apparently they were incapable of knowing right from wrong. But you stated that they had the innocence of a child, it follows that this person will make a mistake, not because of a lack of intelligence, but because their innocence is the basis for their curiosity.Also, they did not know what death was, nor were they able to know since death has not been introduced into their world.God designed them without this capability. Had He given them this ability surely they would not have done what they did, or at least an argument could be made that they would not have done what they did. This is Gods fault, not theirs. They did not create themselves and any parent who does bring a child into this, or any, world does so with the understanding that the child will need constant guidance. First, just because you are speculating that Adam was "smart" or "intelligent" does not make it so.Further, as you stated, Adam and Eve had the innocence of a child, meaning that they did not know bad things occur when one disobeys. So it fits that they would need to be watched over, especially knowing that evils, such as a deceptive snake, exist. God was not stupid, He knew the devil had intentions, just as I know that evil people out there have bad intentions when it comes to my children, and I watch over them like a good father. God left his creations alone, incapable of knowing good from evil and then punishes them, and NOT the snake, for disobeying. Instead God should have taken issue with the devil and protected Adam and Eve.His abandonment shows a lack of love for His children.And not only that, but every single human born into this would must carry with them the guilt of Adam and Eves disobedience, as if any of us have anything to do with that.Further, we must carry the guilt of God having to send His son Jesus to be crucified, as if that solves anything. All that does is place more guilt on us. We need to carry the burden of original sin - even though we had nothing to do with it. We have to carry the burden of Jesus - even though none of us were there. It's all on us, we are the pieces of shit that God created. We can't get it right. We fuck everything up. Yet, we reside in a universe were, by the stroke of a hand, all of this could go away, but instead God chooses to further blame us for the evils in HIS universe.Can you not see the obvious bullshit in this story?- Oni

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

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The scriptures testify to themselves...

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Interesting that you don't believe the tree was magic, but you believe men could live to be 800 or 900 years old. In the verse you provided, Jesus did not say he was the son of Adam. The author of Luke did.The devil is a personification of evil. Have you never used a fictional character to make a point? Referred to someone as Scrooge (who is a fictional charater)? In Proverbs wisdom is personified. Have you heard people personify luck by calling it Lady Luck.

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There are many more scriptures that show that Jesus viewed the genesis account as factual. He used the genesis account of Adam & Eves marriage to show what Gods standard for marriages was, that is Monogamy, so i doubt very much that anyone can claim the account is not factual.

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Again, he's using a foundational myth that his audience recognized. There was no marriage ceremony in the story, no mention of marriage in the story only cleaving. He just showed them that procreation comes from man and woman coming together. In Judaism the "two become one" line is explained as offspring. In ancient times, men weren't always eager to cleave. Even Paul encouraged against cleaving. You know the place where he encourages people to stay single if they didn't already have someone.

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the OT shows that the Jews had a very clear understanding of what sin was, they were categorized into intentional and unintentional sins.
I cant imagine how anyone could draw such a conclusion??? What is your reasoning on this?

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I didn't say the Jews didn't understand sin, it is their concept. I said the doctrine of Original Sin is not part of Judaism. I'm very familiar with Leviticus, but I'm not sure what conclusion you're referring to. I think you've lost your train of thought or misunderstand my line of discussion.

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except that snakes dont talk. lol. And Christian teachings show that the serpent was in fact the devil who was a rebellious angel.

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Exactly! Snakes don't talk. That's why the story is a story and not a fact.

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In this scripture christians were warned about the Devils intentions. An allegorical figure cannot have intentions ever, yet here the Devil is being spoken of as seeking out people to devour.

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You really don't understand literary devices to you? The dictionary describes an allegory as the representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.It is hard to say who in an audience believed the devil was real and who didn't. We don't have the audience to poll. The devil as representative of evil was used in ancient fictional writings. Christianity persisted in presenting the Devil as a real being.

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I used to work with someone who did not believe in the devil, he was a Christadelphian. Are you Christadelphian?

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Nope-Not even sure what that is.Edited by purpledawn, : Fix quote

yes, she has! It's called the synoptic gospels: Matt, Mark & Luke. If you read them you'll find that Jesus never taught he was an atonement sacrifice, never taught about the original sin affecting future generations and never taught about the need to have faith in the notion of himself as a means of absolving past and future sins. Paul introduced all that, not Jesus. Don't you guys read your bibles? No he wasn't! He just said he was. maybe, but he failed to tell us (and his disciples) that a few years after his death there would be the need for a new person -one who had never even met Jesus- to come and tell us about all these other doctrines that Jesus had clearly forgotten aboutGood job the Spirit of Truth is there to fill in the gaps, eh?!

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"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

the 10 commandments are a pretty good place to start for it shows us how the love of God is to be applied, but Jesus showed that there are only 2 laws on which all of Gods commands hang.He said the greatest of Gods are "you must love your God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength... 38This is the greatest and first commandment. 39The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40On these two commandments the whole Law hangs..." Matt 22:35So as a law, love when applied is superior because a person can obey all the other laws under compulsion but not have love. But if one has love, they will be motivated by that love to fullfill all of Gods laws....Laws that will be 'written on their hearts' as Jeremiah 31:33 says "I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people"God is love and love is perfect and it is a perfect law. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

God knows that people need evidence, it was he who made them with inquiring minds. This is why the Apostles were given the power of miracles...this is why Jesus himself was given the power of miracles.

I have an interesting thought for you. Paul preached to his audience that Jesus was a sacrifice to atone for believers' sins, but I contend that Jesus did not speak of himself as a sacrifice to forgive sins.In Matthew and Luke Jesus gave instruction on how to pray and this prayer is prayed every single Sunday in Churches that I've attended. As far as I know it is a pretty standard part of many Christian services.In this prayer we are asking God to forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. (Debt is a metaphor for sin)If Jesus felt he was to be a sacrifice to forgive sins, why the need to ask God to forgive our sins?You could argue that it was before his death, but if Paul's preaching truly came from Jesus, then why continue the request for forgiveness? Paul said, "Forgive as the Lord forgave you." (Colossians 3:13) The prayer is opposite. Forgive and then we'll be forgiven.Christian doctrine states that Jesus died to atone for our sins. We believe in Jesus and we are forgiven, so why pray to God for forgiveness of sins every week?If we do not forgive those who sin against us, are we then not forgiven? Jesus supposedly said: Has the prayer become so rote that no one is paying attention to what's being said?The religious service contradicts the doctrine. Why?

Not all that Jesus taught was penned in the gospels. They are not a word for word account of everything he ever said.But what proved that Paul and the other Apostles wrote under inspiration is that they were given the holy spirit and given powers and miracles which proved that they were working with Gods spirit and not their own. God did the same thing for Moses. He gave him the power of miracle to prove that he was sent by God. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Matthew 20:28 Jesus said "The Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many."
He also explained to the diciples that he must die and suffer although they did not believe him at the time. They objected to that fate and thats when he told Peter to "Get behind me Satan"he certainly was to die a sacrificial death and he certainly did teach it by his own words.Jesus also showed that he was given authority to forgive sinsLuke 17:20And when he saw their faith he said: 'Man, your sins are forgiven you.' 21Thereupon the scribes and the Pharisees started to reason, saying: 'Who is this that is speaking blasphemies? Who can forgive sins except God alone?' 22But Jesus, discerning their reasonings, said in answer to them: What are YOU reasoning out in YOUR hearts? 23Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 24But in order for YOU to know that the Son of man has authority on the earth to forgive sins' he said to the paralyzed man: I say to you, Get up and pick up your little bed and be on your way home.
________________________- This petition would not be authorized unless there was some basis for God’s forgiveness of us. The basis for it is not just his love and mercy because Gods perfect justice requires death for sin.
So the basis for forgiveness is his love and mercy expressed in the human sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ which completely met all the demands of justice in our behalf...that is 'Life for Life' ie Jesus paid our debt to God, the debt that Adam handed down to us namely sin & death.
When Jesus taught this prayer in the sermon on the mount he had already pronounced the forgiveness of the sins of a number whom he healed. So it was to be understood that God’s forgiveness would be through Christ Jesus. And part of becoming a follower of Christ is to let go of all hatred and to Love your enemies which requires forgiveness on the part of the christian.this is why Jesus taught his followers to pray for forgiveness of their sins ...'just as they have forgiven others'... otherwise they could not be his followers. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.