'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

But what about Jesus' other statements that indicate the end was near? Take both of the following together and they make sense together and are consistent ... but make Jesus a false prophet.

quote:

---

[Jesus said,] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

​

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.
(Matthew 24:27, 30-34)

---

quote:

---

Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with the angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.’
(Matthew 16:24, 27-28)

---

Yep. Some Christians try to say that Jesus' failed prophecy is not a failure because it pertains to the Transfiguration. That attempted counter fails. One trenchant reason is the first quote I gave, which is clearly not talking about the Transfiguration.*************************
[Jesus said,] For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.
(Matthew 24:27, 30-34)
*************************Nope. That's not the Transfiguration .... nor is it Pentecost, or Jesus' Resurrection, or any of the other failed attempts Christians offer up.I've not had any Christian yet successfully defend Jesus from being a false prophet, as demonstrated by His failed prophecies on how quickly the Son of Man would return.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.

--------------------------
Maybe this is a message for Judas and any other followers looking to cash in on their association with Jesus - and maybe the 2nd death is the death they alone will "taste" for being ashamed of the son of man. If the others were faithful till the end they would not share this fate.
--------------------------Nope, the "Second death" attempt fails too.1) It involves changing what the Bible says. Jesus didn’t say anything about a second death in the passage.2) If for the sake of argument we temporarily accept that Jesus meant a second death to see if that holds, it doesn’t.a. That change would mean that Jesus was saying that SOME of those DISCIPLES standing there with Him would be going to suffer the second death. That’s not consistent with the rest of the New Testament in which only ONE DISCIPLE (Judas Iscariot) would have suffered a second death.b. NO ONE would taste the second death before the Son of Man returned, so it would not make sense to indicate that only SOME would NOT, because that implies that SOME WOULD.

quote:

---

DPowell: A couple of things here. First of all, the vv. 28-29 absolutely are talking about the crucifixion, which you left out, and they absolutely did happen.

---

1) Sorry to inform you of this, but the stars have not fallen from the skies!2) And of course, any Biblical or traditional claims that the sun was darkened or that the heavenly bodies were skaken when Jesus — for which there is no good evidence even existed — was allegedly crucified, are purely religious, with no good independent corroboration.3) Further, even IF we were to accept for the sake of argument that the stars have fallen from the sky (LOL!), how would that show that it was the Transfiguration that was being alluded to by Matthew and not the alleged coming of the Son of Man? It doesn’t.

quote:

---

DPowell: Secondly, "coming" in Greek is the same word as "going," so it could easily refer to the Ascension (but it does not need to, either, as I will show).

---

1) You are trying to change what the Bible says.
I have 6 different versions of the Bible — The KJV, NIV, NASB, AMP, ESV, and NRSV - and they all say coming, not going. The other points explain why.2) Your change doesn’t make sense with the rest.

quote:

---

30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man ***GOING*** on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

---

The original text is talking about a single event (as is clear from other passages in Matthew), but your change would have it being two completely different events, separated by thousands of years.Further, the nations of the earth did not mourn when Jesus WENT up: but according to the Bible, the nations of the world will when Jesus COMES back.3) Your change simply doesn’t work.
Even IF we accept for the sake of argument that the first part is talking about Jesus GOING up instead of COMING down, the rest of it is talking about Jesus sending His angels with a loud trumpet call, and the angels gathering all of Jesus’ elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. And THAT hasn’t happened yet. So the change doesn’t rescue the scriptures from themselves.

quote:

---

DPowell: Thirdly, I don't think it could be defended that v.31 was fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation in Jesus' time, but again the Greek word does not only mean generation. It also means "race," "age," or "period of time." Go grab a Greek lexicon.

---

Go grab a Bible!Jesus and Paul were both apocalypticists, who (quite wrongly) thought that the end was imminent. We all know the several errors Jesus made concerning this (Matthew 24:27, 30-34; Matthew 16:24, 27-28), but also consider Paul’s statements in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (example, we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord).In fact, statements indicating it was the final days are found throughout the New Testament, such as in Matthew 3:1-2, 7 and 10; 1 Peter 4:7; 1 John 2:18; Romans 13:11-12; James 5:8; and Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-7, 12 and 20.The facts is that taking Matthew’s writing about Jesus’ prophecy for what it actually says in the Bible - this GENERATION - makes perfect sense in light of both the Biblical and the historical context.Christians twist and turn every which way, trying desperately to find loopholes and changing what is said, but to no avail. Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.

quote:

---

DPowell: Go to v.3 to get some context. "As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"

---

Don't you mean, "what will be the sign of Your GOING?" LOL!You see that I am correct. Jesus was telling them about His COMING, not His GOING, and that His COMING was tied to the end of the age, not the Transfiguration, Ascension, Pentecost, etc.

quote:

---

DPowell: Read from v.4 down through v.34. Jesus does not actually answer the question of "when," which Jesus Himself did not claim to know but which remained only in the mind of the Father (Acts 1:6-8).

---

1) Um, that's not what the Bible says.
The Bible says Jesus said He did not know the the day or the hour. It doesn't say He did not know the generation: and in fact, the Bible does say that Jesus DID know the generation.2) Not all ancient sources include the part about Jesus Himself not knowing the day or the hour.In fact, even if you checked different versions of the Bible you'd see the inconsistency on this.a. The KJV does not include "nor the Son".b. The NASB includes it, without comment.c. The AMP adds the qualifier "[exact]" to make it "But of that [exact] day and hour ...".d. NRSV includes "nor the Son", but notes that "Other ancient authorities lack nor the Son".e. The NIV has "nor the Son", but notes "Some manuscripts do not have nor the Son."f. The ESV has "nor the Son", but notes "Some manuscriptes omit nor the Son".So you don't even have solid Biblical backing for Jesus not knowing the day and hour (let alone the generation).

quote:

---

DPowell: How, then, could Jesus' use of "genea" (generation, age, race, etc.) have been a time frame qualifier?

---

Because a generation in the Bible is 40 years, not a mere day or hour.

You are also trying to pull Jesus' statement out of context: you are trying to change what it clearly applies to.Farther along in Matthew Jesus tells more about the coming of the Son of Man with the angels and his rewarding people according to what they have done ...

quote:

---

[Jesus said,] "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

​

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' ...

​

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' ...

​

Then they [the goats on his left] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous [the sheep on his right] to eternal life."
(Matthew 25:31-36, 41-43, 46)

---

That is not talking about the Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Ascension, Pentecost, etc.Same with the following, which is directly connected to one of the passages where Jesus goofs by saying that the end - yes, the end - will come before the current generation passes away.

quote:

---

Jesus answered [the disciples in private,] ... "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert', do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms', do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
...
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one of the heavens to the other."
(Matthew 24:4, 26-27, 30-31)

---

The above verses are not referring to the Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, or Pentecost.The coming of the Son of Man will be a major, worldwide event, clearly visible from east to west, with all the nations of the world mourning, and angels gathering the elect (as in Matthew 25:31-36, 41-43, 46).And then there's this ...

quote:

---

Jesus answered [the disciples in private,] ... "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark: and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and other left.
... So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
(Matthew 24:4, 36-41, 44)

---

This is clearly talking about the Son of Man coming to earth, not Him going up during His resurrection, nor about flames coming down upon a few people during Pentecost. It is talking about Jesus' second coming.All the material I have quoted from Matthew about the coming of the Son of Man is consistent with it referring to Jesus' second coming.On the other hand, various parts that I have quoted directly from the Bible contradict events some Christians try to substitute for Jesus' second coming, such as Jesus' transfiguration, Jesus' resurrection, Pentecost, an individual person being 'saved', and so on. So first, let's all be honest and keep the discussion on topic. The passages of interest - where Jesus is a false prophet - deal with His second coming - the coming of the Son of Man in judgement: they do NOT deal with His miraculous birth, His transfiguration, His crucifixion, His resurrection, His ascension, or the Pentecost.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Matt. 24:30 has received this better translation in the Recovery Version Bible:

​

"And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:30)

---

The ASV, YLT, ESV, AMP, NASB, KJV, and NIV versions of the Bible all translate it as all the tribes [or nations] of the earth, not of the land.So I certainly do have Biblical support for my statement.Further, you are agreeing with me that it is talking about the coming of the Son of Man, and not the Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, or Pentecost. And that's the more important point.

quote:

---

You cannot force this passage to mean Paul expected to be alive at the time of the second coming of Christ. He can speak of "we" in a general way. That is the entire universal community of faith forms the "we".

---

Nope. YOU cannot force this passage to mean Paul was talking about the entire universal community of faith, at all times throughout all remaining history. That's not what is said.Paul refers to himself as part of "we" throughout that letter.
Some examples:

quote:

---

"Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy.
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace.
We [Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy] give thanks to God always for all of you ..."
(1 Thessalonians 1:1-2 )

---

quote:

---

"You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake."
(1 Thessalonians 1:5)

---

quote:

---

"For you yourselves know, brothers, that our coming to you was not in vain. But though we had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know ..."
(1 Thessalonians 2:1-2)

---

quote:

---

"For we never came with words of flattery, as you know, nor with a pretext of greed - God is witness. Nor did we seek glory fro people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ. But we were gentle among you ..."
(1 Thessalonians 2:5-7)

---

quote:

---

"For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God."
(1 Thessalonians 2:9)

---

quote:

---

"Therefore when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left behind at Athens alone, and we sent Timothy, our brother and God's coworker in the gospel of Christ, to establish and exhort you in your faith ..."
(1 Thessalonians 3:1-2)

---

quote:

---

"For what thanksgiving can we return to God for you, for all the joy that we feel for your sake before our God, as we pray most earnestly night and day that we may see you face to face and supply what is lacking in your faith?"
(1 Thessalonians 3:9-10)

---

I could go on. Paul continually counts himself among the "we" he mentions.Now let's look at the first verse of the part of interest:

quote:

---

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not greive as others do who have no hope."
(1 Thessalonians 4:13)

---

That is the intro to the alleged Rapture passage. Note again, as in all the rest of 1 Thessalonians:1. Paul is part of "we".2. Paul is talking to a particular group of people, living in his own day.And nowhere is the rest of the passages of interest is there any indication that Paul has stopped talking about himself as part of "we", nor are there any indications that he suddently stopped talking to only those who the letter is addressed to and to whom the entire rest of the letter addresses specifically.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.

In 1 Thessalonians, Paul continually counts himself among the "we" he mentions, and he is talking to a particular group of people, living in his own time.Nowhere is the rest of the passages of interest is there any indication that Paul has stopped talking about himself as part of "we", nor are there any indications that he suddently stopped talking to only those who the letter is addressed to and to whom the entire rest of the letter addresses specifically.You are forced to try to save Paul from being an apocalypticist, which is what his own words show him to be, so you make up putative changes in tense and audience.A straight reading supports me and counter you.

quote:

---

gragbarder:
The ASV, YLT, ESV, AMP, NASB, KJV, and NIV versions of the Bible all translate it as all the tribes [or nations] of the earth, not of the land.

​

So I certainly do have Biblical support for my statement.

---

quote:

---

You have the right to choose which English translation you prefer. I have support also for "tribes of the land" is an admisable rendering.

---

You should have said, "Yes, you are right, and you were right, even when I pretended you were wrong."

quote:

---

But the passage says that some would not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. You are reading "Son of man coming in His kingdom" and inserting "the second coming".

---

Because that's what Jesus is talking about. Both there, and in the rest of Matthew when the coming of the Son of Man is mentioned.It's clear you don't believe the Bible. No, you believe a distortion of it, manipulated at will in attempt to make it say what you want it to say, rather than what it actually says.

quote:

---

Lest He come suddenly and find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to all. Watch!' (Mark 13:37)

​

By the words " ... what I say to you, I say to all" there is no doubt that it would be foolish to assume Jesus was not speaking to anyone else but those standing around.

---

So you just assume that Jesus was talking to you, some 2000 years in the future???Nope, the passage does not indicate that.

quote:

---

And the Gospel of Luke, taking up the same theme, reinforces that audience for the warnings are larger in scope then the immediate group if listeners:

​

"You also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.

​

And Peter said, Lord, are You saying this parable to us, or also to all?

​

And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and prudent steward, whom the master will set over his service to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his masterm when he comes, will find so doing." ( Luke 12:40-43)

​

Peter asks if the parable of His return is for them or for all believers. The answer of Jesus is that it is for all and any believers whom the Lord finds serving Him appropriately. The scope would include all Christians down through the ages as recipients of the warning.

---

Another unwarranted huge leap of interpretation. Jesus doesn't say anything about talking to people some 2000 years in the future.Bottom line.We have shown passages where Jesus indicates that Son of Man will come, with His angels, etc., (a) before some of those standing there with Him have tasted death, and (b) during the current generation.Now, you show us an equal number of passages where Jesus indicates that the Son of Man will NOT come, with His angels, etc. , until some 2000 years in the future.Until you do that, you lose. It's that simple.

quote:

---

gragbarder:
In 1 Thessalonians, Paul continually counts himself among the "we" he mentions, and he is talking to a particular group of people, living in his own time.

---

quote:

---

jay:
The point is that he is nor restricting his encouragement to that group.

---

Paul continues to speak to just the group he wrote to. Nowhere does Paul say or indicate that he is talking to future generations, thousands of years from then.

quote:

---

Jay:
And I pointed out that in 1 Thess.5:9,10 Paul is also saying that Christ only died for the Thessalonians:

​

" .. our Lord Jesus Christ, whjo died for us in order that whether we watch or sleep, we may also live together with Him"

---

I don’t see anything in there about people living some 2000 years later. Please, point out those words to me.

quote:

---

Gragbarder:
Nowhere is the rest of the passages of interest is there any indication that Paul has stopped talking about himself as part of "we", nor are there any indications that he suddently stopped talking to only those who the letter is addressed to and to whom the entire rest of the letter addresses specifically.

---

quote:

---

Jay:
No one is saying that he "stopped" talking of himself or the Thessalonians.

---

So when Paul said, we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord he was including himself. Right.And when Paul said, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air he was including himself. Right.

quote:

---

gragbarder:
You are forced to try to save Paul from being an apocalypticist, which is what his own words show him to be, so you make up putative changes in tense and audience.

---

quote:

---

Jay:
No, rather you cannot prove Paul taught that Jesus only died for the Thessalonians who were reading his letter (1 Thess. 5:10). Nor can you prove that he taught Christ was only returning for the letter reading Thessalonians in 4:17 of the same book.

---

Neither of which, even IF I had claimed them, would show that Paul was not an apocalypticist.Do you even know what an apocalypticist is? Learn something about it and then read the New Testament again and you will see how both Paul’s and Jesus’s — and others’ — statements fit it quite well.In 1 Thessalonians, Paul continually counts himself among the "we" he mentions, and he is talking to a particular group of people, living in his own time.Nowhere is the rest of the passages of interest is there any indication that Paul has stopped talking about himself as part of "we", nor are there any indications that he suddenly stopped talking to only those who the letter is addressed to and to whom the entire rest of the letter addresses specifically.You are forced to try to save Paul from being an apocalypticist, which is what his own words show him to be, so you make up putative changes in tense and audience. A straight reading supports me and counter you.BOTTOM LINE:1. We have shown passages where Jesus indicates that Son of Man will come, with His angels, etc.,(a) before some of those standing there with Him have tasted deathand(b) during the current generation.2. You need to show us an equal number of passages where Jesus indicates that the Son of Man will NOT come, with His angels, etc. , until some 2000 years in the future. Until you do that, you lose. It's that simple.

1. Before some of those standing there with Him would taste death. (Matthew 16:24, 27-28)2. During the current generation He was talking to. (Matthew 24:27, 30-34)Now show us the Bible verses where Jesus says the Son of Man will not come for some 2000 years.

You are interested only in a battle of attrition. You "reply" but don't really say anything other than the implied "I believe!!!!".In 1 Thessalonians, Paul continually counts himself among the "we" he mentions, and he is talking to a particular group of people, LIVING IN HIS OWN TIME.Nowhere is the rest of the passages of interest is there any indication that Paul has stopped talking about himself as part of "we", nor are there any indications that he suddenly stopped talking to only those who the letter is addressed to and to whom the entire rest of the letter addresses specifically and started talking to people some 2000 years in the future.You are forced to try to save Paul from being an apocalypticist, which is what his own words show him to be (sorry if you don't know what an apocalypticist is: maybe you should read up on it), so you make up putative changes in time and audience. A straight reading supports me and counters you.BOTTOM LINE:1. We have shown passages where Jesus indicates that Son of Man will come, with His angels, etc.,(a) before some of those standing there with Him have tasted death (Matthew 16:24, 27-28)and(b) during the current generation. (Matthew 24:27, 30-34)2. You need to show us an equal number of passages where Jesus indicates that the Son of Man will NOT come, with His angels, etc. , until some 2000 years in the future. Until you do that, you lose. It's that simple. Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.

quote:

---

jay:
Why do you suppose that all three gospels immediately follow Jesus' word about some living to see His coming in His kingdom, or the kingdom of God, etc. with the experience of His transfiguration ?

​

Doesn't it seem their intention that the reader understand that this event of transfiguration is closely associated with Christ's promise ?

---

Nope, that's not reasonable at all.You are also trying to pull Jesus' statement out of context: you are trying to change what it clearly applies to.Farther along in Matthew Jesus tells more about the coming of the Son of Man with the angels and his rewarding people according to what they have done ...

quote:

---

[Jesus said,] "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

​

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' ...

​

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' ...

​

Then they [the goats on his left] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous [the sheep on his right] to eternal life."
(Matthew 25:31-36, 41-43, 46)

---

That is absolutely not talking about the Transfiguration, or the Crucifixion, Ascension, Pentecost, etc.Same with the following, which is directly connected to one of the passages where Jesus goofs by saying that the end - yes, the end - will come before the current generation passes away.

quote:

---

Jesus answered [the disciples in private,] ... "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert', do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms', do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
...
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one of the heavens to the other."
(Matthew 24:4, 26-27, 30-31)

---

The above verses are clearly not referring to the Transfiguration, or to the Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, Pentecost, etc.The coming of the Son of Man will be a major, worldwide event, clearly visible from east to west, with all the nations of the world mourning, and angels gathering the elect (as in Matthew 25:31-36, 41-43, 46).And then there's this ...

quote:

---

Jesus answered [the disciples in private,] ... "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark: and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and other left.

​

... So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
(Matthew 24:4, 36-41, 44)

---

This is clearly talking about the Son of Man coming to earth, not about His Transfiguration, or Him being resurrected, or ascending, nor about flames coming down upon a few people during Pentecost. It is talking about Jesus' second coming.All the material I have quoted from Matthew about the coming of the Son of Man is consistent with it referring to Jesus' second coming.On the other hand, various parts that I have quoted directly from the Bible contradict events some Christians try to substitute for Jesus' second coming, such as Jesus' transfiguration, as well as Jesus' resurrection, Pentecost, an individual person being 'saved', and so on. So first, let's all be honest and keep the discussion on topic. The passages of interest - where Jesus is a false prophet - deal with His second coming - the coming of the Son of Man in judgement: they do NOT deal with His miraculous birth, His transfiguration, His crucifixion, His resurrection, His ascension, or the Pentecost.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.