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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 12177
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 242 of 670 (637840)
10-18-2011 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
10-18-2011 9:20 AM


Re: What God does.
jar writes:

The discussion is about what God does, not what the human does.

So are we questioning the motives of the teacher/programmer/creator?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 9:20 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12579
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 243 of 670 (637842)
10-18-2011 9:26 AM


Jar and Phat
60 messages before the thread enters summation mode. Maybe you guys could take the current discussion into PMs, unless you can relate it to the topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Phat, posted 10-18-2011 9:35 AM Admin has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12177
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 244 of 670 (637845)
10-18-2011 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Chuck77
10-16-2011 2:14 AM


Re: What Christians are best at
Chuck77 writes:

Christians don't go around saying we are allowed to judge God like Jar did.

This idea used to bother me. How, I wondered, would it even be proper...not to mention possible to question and/or challenge God?

Then I thought of an analogy of a martial arts teacher and his student. The teacher has the motivation of always challenging his student to become better and better. Does the student have a right to challenge the teacher? My answer was that if the student ever expects to learn anything he has to challenge someone better than he is, or he himself will never improve.

Just because God may set Himself up to be questioned or challenged in no way detracts from His position or ability. In my opinion, the motive would be for the edification and training of the human individual and/or race.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Chuck77, posted 10-16-2011 2:14 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12177
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 245 of 670 (637847)
10-18-2011 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Admin
10-18-2011 9:26 AM


Re: Jar and Phat
This topic is evolving, Percy. If I were required to summarize the entire discussion so far, I would label it as an evolving debate which clarifies or at least showcases my personal beliefs. I am one of the few who enjoys sparring with jar, though he can be anything but polite. I will say that I have advanced my beliefs since starting this thread over two years ago. I suspect, however, that we will end up with a Final Question long before we arrive at any Final Answer.

Add By Edit: For those of you who see jars debating style as brusque , it is probably the reason that Admin censored some of his words. I dont mind him challenging me intellectually and personally, however, so for me brusque is fair cricket.

Edited by Phat, : added comment


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 Message 243 by Admin, posted 10-18-2011 9:26 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Admin, posted 10-18-2011 10:33 AM Phat has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12579
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 246 of 670 (637857)
10-18-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Phat
10-18-2011 9:35 AM


Re: Jar and Phat
Phat writes:

This topic is evolving, Percy.

That's fine, as long as it is micro-evolution, but it looks like macro-evolution to me. The central issue is whether Christian positions on evolution are driven by willful ignorance.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Phat, posted 10-18-2011 9:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 10-18-2011 10:37 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12177
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 247 of 670 (637859)
10-18-2011 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Admin
10-18-2011 10:33 AM


The Central Issue regarding Christian logic
Percy writes:

The central issue is whether Christian positions on evolution are driven by willful ignorance.

Depends whether the position is based on Logic, Reason, and Reality or whether the position is based on a belief and a will to proselytize.

Edited by Phat, : changed subtitle


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 Message 246 by Admin, posted 10-18-2011 10:33 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 10:46 AM Phat has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 248 of 670 (637862)
10-18-2011 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
10-18-2011 10:37 AM


Re: Jar and Phat
Phat writes:

Percy writes:

The central issue is whether Christian positions on evolution are driven by willful ignorance.

Depends whether the position is based on Logic, Reason, and Reality or whether the position is based on a belief and a will to proselytize.

But don't beliefs and and desire to proselytise essentially lead to the willful ignorance of that which contradicts?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 10-18-2011 10:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 10-18-2011 10:51 AM Straggler has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12177
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 249 of 670 (637864)
10-18-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Straggler
10-18-2011 10:46 AM


What Constitutes Willful Ignorance?
Straggler writes:

But don't beliefs and and desire to proselytise essentially lead to the willful ignorance of that which contradicts?

Is the ignorance willful? Perhaps the believer is sincere and fervent.

There is no argument that a disagreement exists...as Buzsaw puts it, there is an alternative viewpoint.

I suppose the issue is what exactly constitutes willful ignorance as opposed to ignorance or sincere belief in an alternative explanation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 10:46 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2011 11:00 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 250 of 670 (637867)
10-18-2011 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
10-18-2011 10:51 AM


Re: What Constitutes Willful Ignorance?
I would suggest one leads to the other. And I would argue that EvC demonstrates this constantly.

But it depends how you define "willful" I suppose.

Phat writes:

I suppose the issue is what exactly constitutes willful ignorance as opposed to ignorance or sincere belief in an alternative explanation.

If being willful requires that one NOT believe an opposite then is anyone ever willfully ignorant?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 10-18-2011 10:51 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 251 of 670 (637905)
10-18-2011 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by jar
10-18-2011 9:00 AM


Re: What God does.
But God cannot know that Its knowledge is so perfect.

Would it be more evil for God to assume It has perfect knowledge and only create heaven-bound folk, thus denying the potential to prove It wrong to all the folk it thinks will be hell-bound; or, for God to simply create all creatures it plans on creating without respect to whether or not It thinks they will be hell- or heaven-bound?

Since 'good' and 'evil' are relative terms that only have meaning to moralistic individualsand for humans are even different from one person to the next, I think it is not likely you can define 'God' in such a way that It won't be found evil by someone.

You think Phat's God is evil. Phat thinks your God is heartless.

But is either of you right?

Jon

Edited by Jon, : clarity


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 9:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 4:02 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 252 of 670 (637908)
10-18-2011 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Jon
10-18-2011 3:36 PM


Re: What God does.
That's fine but I can't see how any of that has anything to do with what I asked.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 251 by Jon, posted 10-18-2011 3:36 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12177
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 253 of 670 (638734)
10-25-2011 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by jar
10-18-2011 9:00 AM


Judging God
jar writes:

If the God has foreknowledge then that God knows even before that critter is created that that critter will go to hell.

Such a God is simply evil.

This kinda ties in with your belief that humans were given awareness of good and evil and a charge to do good. I can hardly imagine a scenario whereby my judging God would ever be considered a right move...but I look at God more as a standard of perfection and infinite wisdom rather than a teacher who expects me to challenge Her.

About the idea of willful ignorance....is it wrong to hold on to beliefs that seem logically crazy or irrational? For example, saying that God can do whatever God wants to do and that it is always a right move....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 10-18-2011 9:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 10-25-2011 11:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 254 of 670 (638737)
10-25-2011 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
10-25-2011 11:30 AM


Re: Judging God
What does the Bible say?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 10-25-2011 11:30 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12177
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 255 of 670 (675632)
10-13-2012 3:13 PM


Oh No! He isn't supposed to be like that!

It is a given that I prefer fantasy over reality, as do many. My question to you is this: If GOD exists (based on your framework of GOD, God, and god) Is it not quite possible that not very many humans would then like or worship such a Deity?

Edited by Phat, : added banner


Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by jar, posted 10-13-2012 4:35 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 256 of 670 (675633)
10-13-2012 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
10-13-2012 3:13 PM


Re: Oh No! He isn't supposed to be like that!
What does it matter?

GOD is, if GOD exists, whatever GOD is. It does not matter whether or not any humans like or worship the critter.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 10-13-2012 3:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Phat, posted 10-13-2012 5:31 PM jar has responded

  
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