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Author Topic:   Is God good?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 541 of 722 (684633)
12-18-2012 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 538 by NoNukes
12-18-2012 12:45 AM


Re: Goodness Demands Justice
Jar takes another tack. He assumes that the Exodus is only a story. My problem with Jar's take is that even taking the story as a myth, one might well wonder the value in a story that makes a monotheistic God seem unjust.
You need to look at the story from the morality stance of the period. At that time (and for most of history since then) a ruler was considered absolute and what that ruler did was just regardless of how we might judge it today. In the story the God character is simply a plot device in a saga meant to remind folk of how THEY became a nation, a people. The Hebrews are good, all others are bad.
That view of authority, of the rights of a god or monarch or prince is still around in much of the world today even in the US.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 542 of 722 (684649)
12-18-2012 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by jar
12-18-2012 9:13 AM


Re: Goodness Demands Justice
Jar takes another tack. He assumes that the Exodus is only a story. My problem with Jar's take is that even taking the story as a myth, one might well wonder the value in a story that makes a monotheistic God seem unjust.
/////
jar:
You need to look at the story from the morality stance of the period. At that time (and for most of history since then) a ruler was considered absolute and what that ruler did was just regardless of how we might judge it today. In the story the God character is simply a plot device in a saga meant to remind folk of how THEY became a nation, a people. The Hebrews are good, all others are bad.
That view of authority, of the rights of a god or monarch or prince is still around in much of the world today even in the US.
I agree.
The church people "need to look at the story from the morality stance of the period."
What they should notice is that the Bible correctly describes the two types of men and their societies on the planet earth at that time.
There is the patriarchs, similar to the moslems today.
And then there are all the other Gentile nations, the more feminized societies surrounding the Hebrew oatriarchs, if not actually matriarchies by contrast.
These matriarchies are similar is their rejection of the religious Laws and there openess to a more sexually premissive cultural.
If we take the Bible at itsword, then God not only created these two types of men, but one does "hear" god and take this seriously, condemning the nations around them, attacking, killing, invading them just as te bible history reports.
These Gentiles which are more numerous and better educated, much more urbanized and afluent societies that crumb before the Jews.
God does seem to favor the Hebrew patriarchs who win over the odds against them and in the end, reign over these Gentiles.
That is the Big Picture, isn't it????

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 Message 541 by jar, posted 12-18-2012 9:13 AM jar has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3850 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 543 of 722 (684651)
12-18-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by Dr Adequate
12-17-2012 8:25 PM


Re: The Nazis' (Book) Burning Zeal For Darwinism
So, I have at last found a Nazi reference to Darwinism. It's in their guidelines for banning books.
Along with "Die Literatur des Marxismus, Kommunismus, Bolschewismus" ("the literature of Marxism, Communism, Bolshevism") and "Die liberalistisch-demokratische Tendenz- und Gesinnungsliteratur" ("Literature with liberal-democratic tendencies and attitudes") they also wished to suppress writings "deren Inhalt die falsche naturwissenschaftliche Aufklrung eines primitiven Darwinismus [...] ist" ("which contain the pseudoscientific exposition of primitive Darwinism").
They also condemned "Alle Schriften, welche die christliche Religion und ihre Einrichtungen, den Gottesglauben [...] verhhnen, verumglimpfen oder verchtlich machen" ("All works which mock, libel, or make contemptible the Christian religion and its institutions, belief in God ...")
Excellent research.
Now find all the things which the Nazi appropriated from the ideas of Nietzsche.

This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 544 of 722 (684661)
12-18-2012 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by Dr Adequate
12-17-2012 8:25 PM


Re: The Nazis' (Book) Burning Zeal For Darwinism
In the article link we see Darwin menioned -
quote:
6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (H�ckel).
Interesting. Also interesting is the main caveat paragraph beneath the title of the article:
quote:
What was forbidden? What was burned? It is difficult to say for sure, in part because there were so many agencies which got involved. According to Leonidas Hill, author of "The Nazi Attack on Un-German Literature, 1933-1945," by 1934, over forty agencies had lists ennumerating 4,100 publications to be banned. The following list is necessarily partial, but should represent the most influential literature blacklists from 1933 to 1935.
"It is difficult to say for sure" what was forbidden and burned.
I can see the difficulty because Darwin's name is NOT mentioned in the list of authors to be cleansed from Public Libraries.
quote:
Anthologie j�ngster Lyrik
Anthologie j�ngster Prosa
Asch, Nathan
Asch, Schalom
Babel: Budjonnys Reiterarmee
Barbusse, Henri
Barthel, Max: Die M�hle zum toten Mann
Becher, Johannes
Beer-Hofmann, Richard
Birkenfeld, G�nther
Bley, Fritz: alles au�er: Tier- und Jagdgeschichten
Bobinskaja, Karbunauri
Bogdanow: Das erste M�del
Bonsels: alles au�er: Biene Maja, Himmelsvolk, Indienfahrt
Braune: M�dchen an der Orga Privat
Brecht, Bert
Breitbach: Rot gegen Rot
Brod, Max: alles au�er: Tycho Brahe
Br�ck, Anita: Schicksale hinter Schreibmaschinen
Carr, Robert
Doeblin, Alfred: alles au�er: Wallenstein
Dos Passos
Drei�ig neue deutsche Erz�hler
Drei�ig neue Erz�hler des neuen Ru�lands
Ebermayer: Die Nachin Warschau
Edschmid, Kasimir: alles au�er: Timur, Die 6 M�ndungen
Difficult to say for sure what was really banned.
I also would like to know what distinguishes "primitive Darwin" from other than "primitive" Darwin.
Of further interst is this 1938 guideline -
quote:
c) All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk.
Oh really??
quote:
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
Adolf Hitler
Mockery. What did the Apostle Paul say should be the attitude of the Gentile Christian towards the Jews ?
1.) God has absolutely not cast away His people the Jews - Romans 11:1
2.) The temporary hardening of their hearts works for the Gentile to receive grace and mercy (Rom. 11:5,6).
3.) Their stumbling providencially aids the Gentiles to be saved (v.11,12)
4.) Their temporary casting aside is for the salvation of the world -(v.12)
5.) They are the natural branches as Gentiles are wild branches to the "tree" of salvation (v.17)
6.) Gentiles should not boast against the Jew (v.18)
7.) They are the root of the wellbeing of the world and bear the Gentiles and NOT the other way around (v.18)
8.) The Gentile should therefore not be "highminded" (v.19).
9.) God will graft them in again to their natural plant of salvation (v.23).
10.) And thus all Israel will be saved (v.26).
11.) The World "Deliverer" will come out of Zion (v.26).
- In other words the world's Savior will come out of Jewish Zion.
12.) Salvation is of the Jews -
" ... my kinsmen according to the flesh, Who are Israelites, whose are the sonship and the glory and the cevenants and the giving of the law and the service; Whose are the fathers, and out of whom, as regards what is according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 9:3b-5)
In the confusion of mass hysteria of the Third Reich we can see how reliable was their discernment of what constituted accurate non-mocking representation of the Christian faith.
The extermination of 6 million Jews because this madman thought he was doing the will of God Almighty, defending himself against the Jew? And the Nazis were banning ---
quote:
"All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution"
No one can seriously tell me Hitler's own writings and speeches didn't "besmirch" the Christian religion unless his "Christian religion" calls for the expulsion of Romans (the basic book of Christian doctrine), chapters 9 - 11. These chapters underline the Christian churches attitude towards the Jews.
So in the hysteria of Hitler's Germany public statements and actions were not always consistent to say the least. And I can see both the mockery of Nazi distancing themselves from "primitive Darwin" whatever that is, as opposed to just "Darwin", and the mockery of pretending to be defenders of the Christian Gospel.
Some information has been gathered about Hitler's collection of books he read which included Christian oriented books
quote:
Timothy W. Ryback, who examined Hitler's books, found more than 130 books devoted to spirituality and religion including the teachings of Jesus Christ. Some of the titles included, Sunday Meditations; On Prayer; A Primer for Religious Questions, Large and Small; Large Truths About Mankind, the World and God; a German translation of E. Stanley Jones's 1931 best seller, The Christ of the Mount; and a 500-page work on the life and teachings of Jesus, published in 1935 under the title The Son: The Evangelical Sources and Pronouncements of Jesus of Nazareth in Their Original Form and With the Jewish Influences. Ryback also found a leather-bound tome -- with WORTE CHRISTI, or "Words of Christ," embossed in gold on the cover -- According to Ryback, it "was well worn, the silky, supple leather peeling upward in gentle curls along the edges. Human hands had obviously spent a lot of time with this book.... I scanned the book for marginalia that might suggest a close study of the text. A white-silk bookmark, preserved in its original perfection between pages 22 and 23 (only the portion exposed to the air had deteriorated), lay across a description of the Last Supper as related by Saint John. A series of pages that followed contained only a single aphorism each: 'Believe in God' (page 31), 'Have no fear, just believe' (page 52), 'If you believe, anything is possible' (page 53), and so on, all the way to page 95, which offers the solemn wisdom 'Many are called but few are chosen.'"
from http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm
I only submit to you that if a man could be totally deluded in engineering the Holocaust under the belief that he is also defending the Christian church, the same madman could be so deluded having followers claim they reject "primitive Darwin" while absolutely adhereing militaristically to Darwin's racists ideas.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2012 8:25 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-18-2012 2:03 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 545 of 722 (684689)
12-18-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 537 by NoNukes
12-17-2012 9:27 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
You have no choice but to admit it for the Bible because it is well documented history.
You have to admit that Abolition of Slavery was caused by the Bible as well as is well documented history. You have to admit the major contribution of Christian based orginizations in the abolition movement.
Also of note is that modern slave trade went exactly against Paul's teaching (based on OT) that KIDNAPPING was a sin -
" ... the law is not enacted for a righteous man but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane for ... murderers ... kidnappers ... perjurers ... and whatever other thing is opposed to the healthy teaching, according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted." (1 Tim. 1:9-11)
Kidnapping - stealing people - according to the Apostle Paul, was against the OT law, and is also against the gospel which was entrusted to him. Kidnapping is against the "healthy teaching" of the Christian church. It was lawless, unruly, ungodly and profane to steal African people for the slave trade - New Testament & Old Testament teaching.
Of course the Quakers, the Mennonites, and the Methodists all got to know that already in their abolition movements against the Slave Trade.
On the other hand, your story about Italian women feeling up Negro booty is just an anecdote whose connection to Darwin is unknown.
His ideas were popular in Europe. That is most likely the reason for the ignorance, superstition, of the tail searchers. This was stuff they probably were taught in school.
That said, I'm sure that somebody did use Darwin to further their racism. Darwin himself was a racist. Neither of those discredits the theory of evolution
That neither argues that Evolution is not true was conceded by me a number of posts back.
any more than some fools take on Ham discredits Christianity. And wasn't discrediting the theory of evolution the point of your post? After all, it's not as if anyone worships Darwin.
This line of argument got started because of the point I made, and stand by, that Dr. Adaquate's preference for good is not strongly based if there is no transcendent moral law. And Hitler could just as easily decide what he did was good.
At that statement someone replied that Hitler was fulfilling his duty towards God.
To that I replied he was more fulfilling his duty to Darwin's theory of Evolution.
That is the backround of this series of exchanges. A concerted effort to distance Darwin's ideas from Hitler's ideas and actions was embarked upon. And I stand by what I wrote.
However, I realize that Hitler grasped at other rationals as well, inlcuding his kind of perverted sense of divine mission. Yes, of course he mentions God. Many evil doers who want to exalt their basest desires will attempt at once to say "God is on OUR side anyway." Nothing new there.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by NoNukes, posted 12-17-2012 9:27 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by ringo, posted 12-18-2012 1:06 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 548 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-18-2012 3:19 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 550 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-18-2012 4:06 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 554 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2012 4:50 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 546 of 722 (684697)
12-18-2012 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by jaywill
12-18-2012 12:46 PM


jaywill writes:
Also of note is that modern slave trade went exactly against Paul's teaching (based on OT) that KIDNAPPING was a sin....
Kidnapping slaves was outlawed before owning slaves was abolished. The Bible seems to have little to say against owning slaves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 12:46 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 4:29 PM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 547 of 722 (684739)
12-18-2012 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by jaywill
12-18-2012 11:30 AM


Re: The Nazis' (Book) Burning Zeal For Darwinism
"It is difficult to say for sure" what was forbidden and burned.
That because there were so many lists. But we know that all the things on the lists we have were forbidden, because there they are on the lists of forbidden things.
Sheesh, you guys. Is there anything so simple that you can't misunderstand it?
I can see the difficulty because Darwin's name is NOT mentioned in the list of authors to be cleansed from Public Libraries.
If Darwin's writings, the first exposition of Darwinism, weren't "primitive Darwinism", it would be hard to say what is.
Some information has been gathered about Hitler's collection of books he read which included Christian oriented books ...
No biology textbooks? That would explain why he was consistently wrong about biology.
I only submit to you that if a man could be totally deluded in engineering the Holocaust under the belief that he is also defending the Christian church, the same madman could be so deluded having followers claim they reject "primitive Darwin" while absolutely adhereing militaristically to Darwin's racists ideas.
I concede the possibility of a hypothetical madman so doing --- however since Hitler did not adhere to Darwin's ideas, but rather than his own, since he explicitly rejected many points of Darwinism, since there is nothing in Darwin remotely hinting at the inferiority of the Jews or the desirability of a Holocaust, since Hitler repeatedly enunciated creationist doctrine, since he seemingly never ever referred to Darwin or Darwinism ever as a warrant for his ideas, since we have no evidence that he ever read a word of Darwin, since we have no evidence that this high-school dropout knew more about biology than the average creationist, historians need not consider this whimsical fantasy, but will look at the facts instead.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 11:30 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 548 of 722 (684764)
12-18-2012 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by jaywill
12-18-2012 12:46 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
To that I replied he was more fulfilling his duty to Darwin's theory of Evolution.
So if only you had been truthful we might have been spared this digression. Perhaps this will teach you to be more honest in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 12:46 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 3:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 549 of 722 (684772)
12-18-2012 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Dr Adequate
12-18-2012 3:19 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
Your innuendos or accusations of untruthfulness do not make sense to me. Your charges of being a liar and otherwise less than straightforward do not make sense to me.
But if you're having that hard of a time trusting that I am not involved with honest dialogue, albeit rather opinionated, its your own problem, not mine. You're resorting to poisoning the well.
I don't resort to calling people liars just because I strongly disagree with them.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-18-2012 3:19 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 550 of 722 (684780)
12-18-2012 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by jaywill
12-18-2012 12:46 PM


Slavery
Also of note is that modern slave trade went exactly against Paul's teaching (based on OT) that KIDNAPPING was a sin ...
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)
You have to admit that Abolition of Slavery was caused by the Bible
If, then, the Almighty had undertaken to enlighten the human race by degrees, with respect to the great sin of slavery, is it not wonderful that, in the very last revelation of his will, he has uttered not a single syllable in disapprobation thereof? Is it not wonderful, that he should have completed the revelation of his will, that he should have set his seal to the last word he will ever say to man respecting his duties, and yet not one word about the great obligation of the master to emancipate his slaves, nor about the ''appalling sin'' of slavery? Such silence must, indeed, appear exceedingly peculiar and anomalous to the abolitionist. It would have been otherwise had he written the New Testament. He would, no doubt, have inserted at least one little precept against the sin of slavery. - Arthur Taylor Bledsoe
My correspondent thinks with Mr. Jefferson, that Jehovah has no attributes that will harmonize with slavery; and that all men are born free and equal. Now, I say let him throw away his Bible as Mr. Jefferson did his and then they will be fit companions. - Rev. Thornton Stringfellow, D.D.
The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example. - Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral. - Rev. Alexander Campbell
The extracts from Holy Writ unequivocally assert the right of property in slaves. - Rev. E.D. Simms, professor, Randolph-Macon College
I draw my warrant from the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to hold the slave in bondage. - Rev. Thomas Witherspoon, Presbyterian, of Alabama
The Holy Scriptures [...] do unequivocally authorize the relation of master and slave. - South Carolina Methodist Conference, 1836
People who are bitter and hateful about slavery are obviously bitter and hateful against God and his word, because they reject what God says and embrace what mere humans say concerning slavery. - Senator Charles Davidson, 1996
We therefore hold that abolitionism, which deems slavery a sin and therefore considers every slave holder a criminal and strives for its eradication, is the result of unbelief in its development of nationalism, deistic philanthropy, pantheism, materialism, and atheism.' [...] The more their non-religiosity increases and reaches the pinnacles of theoretical atheism and indifferentism, the more fanatically they fight for the principle of slave emancipation. - Pastor CFW Walther, President of the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church
Last of all, in this great struggle, we defend the cause of God and Religion. The Abolition spirit is undeniably atheistic. [...] This spirit of atheism, which knows no God who tolerates evil, no Bible which sanctions law, and no conscience that can be bound by oaths and covenants, has selected us for its victims, and slavery for its issue. - the Reverend Benjamin Morgan Palmer
In the light of God's truth the notion of created equality and unalienable right is falsehood and infidelity [...] The time has come when civil liberty, as revealed in the Bible and in Providence, must be re-examined, understood, and defended against infidel theories of human rights. - the Reverend F A Ross, Slavery Ordained Of God
[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God [...] it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation ... - Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.
The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined. - United States Senator James Henry Hammond.
Darwin's racists ideas.
Those who look tenderly at the slave-owner, and with a cold heart at the slave, never seem to put themselves into the position of the latter;what a cheerless prospect, with not even a hope of change! picture to yourself the chance, ever hanging over you, of your wife and your little childrenthose objects which nature urges even the slave to call his ownbeing torn from you and sold like beasts to the first bidder! And these deeds are done and palliated by men, who profess to love their neighbours as themselves, who believe in God, and pray that his Will be done on earth! (Darwin, Voyage of the Beagle)
But it is utterly false (as Cap Paget satisfactorily proved) that any, even the very best treated, do not wish to return to their countries. "If I could but see my father & my two sisters once again, I should be happy. I never can forget them." Such was the expression of one of these people, who are ranked by the polished savages in England as hardly their brethren, even in Gods eyes. From instances I have seen of people so blindly & obstinately prejudiced, who in other points I would credit, on this one I shall never again scruple utterly to disbelieve: As far as my testimony goes, every individuall who has the glory of having exerted himself on the subject of slavery, may rely on it his labours are exerted against miseries perhaps even greater than he imagines." (Darwin, Diary)
The state of the enormous slave population must interest everyone who enters the Brazils. Passing along the streets it is curious to observe the numbers of tribes which may be known by the different ornaments cut in the skin & the various expressions. From this results the safety of the country. The slaves must communicate amongst themselves in Portugeese & are not in consequence united. I cannot help believing they will ultimately be the rulers. I judge of it from their numbers, from their fine athletic figures, (especially contrasted with the Brazilians) proving they are in a congenial climate, & from clearly seeing their intellects have been much underrated. they are the efficient workmen in all the necessary trades. If the free blacks increase in numbers (as they must) & become discontented at not being equal to white men, the epoch of the general liberation would not be far distant. [...] I hope the day will come when they will assert their own rights & forget to avenge these wrongs. (Darwin, Diary)
We had several quarrels, for when out of temper he [Captain Fitzroy] was utterly unreasonable. For instance, early in the voyage at Bahia in Brazil he defended and praised the slavery which I abominated, and told me that he had just visited a great slave owner, who had called up many of his slaves and asked them whether they were happy, and whether they wished to be free, and all answered no. I then asked him perhaps with a sneer, whether he thought that the answer of slaves in the presence of their master was worth anything. (Darwin, Autobiography)
I have watched how steadily the general feeling, as shown at elections, has been rising against Slavery.What a proud thing for England, if she is the first Europan Nation which utterly abolishes it. I was told before leaving England, that after living in Slave countries, all my opinions would be altered; the only alteration I am aware of is forming a much higher estimate of the Negro character. It is impossible to see a Negro, and not feel kindly towards him. (Darwin, Voyage of the Beagle)
Has not the white man, who has debased his nature by making slave of his fellow Black, often wished to consider him as other animal. it is the way of mankind & I believe those who soar above such prejudices yet have justly exalted nature of man. (Darwin, Notebooks on the transmutation of species)
If to what Nature has granted the Brazils, man added his just & proper efforts, of what a country might the inhabitants boast. But where the greater parts are in a state of slavery, & where this system is maintained by an entire stop to education, the mainspring of human actions, what can be expected; but that the whole would be polluted by its part. (Darwin, Diary)
The land of the Brazilians [...] a land also of slavery, and therefore of moral debasement. (Darwin, Voyage of the Beagle)
On the 19th of August we finally left the shores of Brazil. I thank God, I shall never again visit a slave-country. (Darwin, Voyages of the Beagle)
Some few, and I am one of them, even wish to God, though at the loss of millions of lives, that the North would proclaim a crusade against slavery. In the long-run, a million horrid deaths would be amply repaid in the cause of humanity. What wonderful times we live in! Massachusetts seems to show noble enthusiasm. Great God! how I should like to see the greatest curse on earthslaveryabolished! (Darwin, Letter to Asa Gray, 1861)
If abolition does follow with your victory, the whole world will look brighter in my eyes. (Darwin, Letter to Asa Gray, 1861)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 12:46 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 551 of 722 (684784)
12-18-2012 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 546 by ringo
12-18-2012 1:06 PM


Kidnapping slaves was outlawed before owning slaves was abolished. The Bible seems to have little to say against owning slaves.
Kidnapping human beings for any reason negates the brand of slavery which usually comes to mind to our modern age.
The mentioning of slavery as in indentured servitude widely practiced in ancient times, seems heavily designed to protect the slave from abuse. The Levitical laws seem to me to lean towards an overall improvement of a social practice.
To our modern senses the word "slavery" is very negatively charged. Indentured servitude could be a way of escaping starvation or to repay depts. ( Of course indentured servitude could also be a hell sometimes ).
These indentured servants are often called "slaves" in the Bible. The word "slaves" to most of our 21rst century reactions conjures up the concept of the Atlantic Slave Trade and antibellum slavery.
People selling themselves into servitude - "slavery" is recorded in the ancient Near East and in theocratic Israel of the OT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by ringo, posted 12-18-2012 1:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-18-2012 4:53 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 560 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2012 5:13 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 578 by ringo, posted 12-19-2012 11:25 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 552 of 722 (684787)
12-18-2012 4:37 PM


For those of you reading who are still puzzled whether or not Charles Darwin's ideas had any effect on Hitler's thinking and that of men dedicated to his vision of Germany, include this lecture in trying to decide where you want to stand. I suggest you watch the entire video including early important caveats.
From Darwin to Hitler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A
While you are trying to make up where you think you should stand, I also suggest this (perhaps unfaily) titled video on the Descent of Man by Darwin in 1871.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUJpRSIUs1s
Make up your own mind.

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-18-2012 4:44 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 553 of 722 (684788)
12-18-2012 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by jaywill
12-18-2012 4:37 PM


And I suggest that you not attempt to debate by link, as this is contrary to the rules of the forum. If you have any facts to back up your fantasies, please present them here. If, as I suspect, you do not, then this would be a great time to stop retailing your unsubstantiated nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 4:37 PM jaywill has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 554 of 722 (684790)
12-18-2012 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by jaywill
12-18-2012 12:46 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
You have to admit that Abolition of Slavery was caused by the Bible as well as is well documented history.
Some Christians were abolitionists, but some Christians owned slaves and believed that the Bible supported owning slaves. And even absent the Ham stuff, it's pretty clear that the Bible contains a number of passages that are very friendly to the 'peculiar institution'. So no, I don't think I can give the Bible credit for causing abolition of slavery. I can agree that some abolitionists were motivated by Jesus teachings to become abolitionists. But abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison found that the overwhelming number his fellow orthodox Christians were indifferent or even hostile to the plight of slaves.
But you want to give the Bible credit. Surely some credit is deserved, but caused? No not really.
What is undisputed is the advances in biology that have increased our ability to feed our population, and to protect ourselves from diseases that are directly attributable to the theory of evolution. That would be the real theory of evolution and not whatever distorted version it is you attribute to the Nazis'.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 12:46 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 555 of 722 (684791)
12-18-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by jaywill
12-18-2012 4:29 PM


The mentioning of slavery as in indentured servitude widely practiced in ancient times, seems heavily designed to protect the slave from abuse. The Levitical laws seem to me to lean towards an overall improvement of a social practice.
Yeah ... like teaching cannibals to use napkins.
To our modern senses the word "slavery" is very negatively charged. Indentured servitude could be a way of escaping starvation or to repay depts. ( Of course indentured servitude could also be a hell sometimes ).
These indentured servants are often called "slaves" in the Bible. The word "slaves" to most of our 21rst century reactions conjures up the concept of the Atlantic Slave Trade and antibellum slavery.
Which is what it should conjure up, because the differences between antebellum slavery in the U.S. and slavery in the Bible were negligible.
A slave is "property" (Exodus 21:21, Leviticus 25:46). People are "forced" to become slaves (Jeremiah 34:16). Slaves are "held in bondage" (Jeremiah 34:9, Jeremiah 34:10). The opposite of slave is "free" (Deuteronomy 32:36, 1 Kings 14:10, 2 Kings 9:8, 2 Kings 14:26). To cease being a slave is to be "freed" (Exodus 6:6, Exodus 21:26, Jeremiah 34:9, Jeremiah 34:10). The masters of slaves "oppress them with forced labor" (Exodus 1:11). A slave may be "bought" (Leviticus 22:11, Leviticus 25:44, Ecclesiastes 2:7) and "sold" (Leviticus 25:42, Deuteronomy 24:7, Esther 7:4, Job 3:19, Psalms 105:17). A slave may be given as a gift (Genesis 20:14) or bequeathed by his master to his children "as inherited property" (Leviticus 25:46). If through negligence someone causes the death of a slave, compensation is paid to his "master" not to his family (Exodus 21:32). It is legitimate to beat a slave with a rod, so long as the beating is not so severe that the slave dies as a direct result of the beating (Exodus 21:20-21).
That's slavery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 4:29 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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