The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance

So you confirm that Jesus is a failed Messiah! Great.Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Remember it's mostly Calvinists that are fallen, the rest of us Christians understand there is no Fall in the Biblical stories.

You keep harping on terms like reject when I do not think I have ever said anything related to rejection.Let me try yet again.Lots of religions have existed based on what we now know are false beliefs.Yes, Christianity has had a belief in a resurrection but so far I don't see anything you have presented that would imply there had to be a physical resurrection.So my point is that belief seems to be sufficient regardless of facts.

Belief in whatever the club considers essential and in many cases what a chapter of the club considers essential.

So back to the "What's in it for me!" Christianity? And again, why would that matter?

Is there ever a good reason for adults to follow what someone says just because the person said it?Even in the military a soldier can be tried and convicted for "simply following orders".What in particular am I placing faith in?If you mean an afterlife then yes, I believe that totally on faith.But if you mean Jesus teachings, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, teach the children, feed the hungry, protect the weak, then it is not a matter of faith but rather a reasoned conclusion. Again, why is it not Christianity the religion? Why is saying it does not matter whether or not there was a physical resurrection rejecting the resurrection? As do almost all other religions. Do you thing God would be upset if someone chose Buddhism or Taoism or Confucianism or Islam or Judaism or Satanism as their path?But I was raised in a Christian environment, educated in Christian schools and so follow Christianity.AbE:You also continue to differentiate between religion and philosophy as though religions were somehow different than a philosophy.Yet you have also recognized that there are religions that are pretty much just philosophy.Edited by jar, : see Abe

Again, that is the "What's in it for me" Christianity. When you introduce Jesus' death as a sacrifice, Jesus paying some of your bills, I see Jesus diminished, reduced in nature and character. I see it as just a cop out.But we have been down that path many times.Tell me, why would Jesus death and resurrection make anything Jesus is alleged to have said have any worth?

Evidence Phat, and remember I have actually read the Bible.Where is the evidence of a man alive today? What is the process to get to know this man? How do you determine that you actually know this man? What does pride have to do with anything? And yes, in most cases I would insist on paying my own bill in a restaurant.

Again, you express an opinion that is not based on the facts or reality.I not only believe in the Christian Religion but am a Christian. You might believe that is not true but you would simply be wrong. How does a physical resurrection validate anything Jesus said? Or is that just another belief? Paul was often an absolute ass as well as a fanatic. Yup, the Gospel and message. No resurrection needed. The charge is valid regardless of the source or authority. An a true Scotsman ...

LOLBullshit Phat, it simply mean that the content stands up to examination by logic, reason and reality. Of course the content is a human construct meant for human ears. What other possibility exists.But that does not follow from what you said. A great example is the tale of the Garden of Eden where the God character lies but the serpent tells the truth.If something is wrong or nonsense then the fact that it is attributed to God does not make it right.

The no true Scotsman is certainly not a throw away line but rather the heart of the matter.I can't think of many things I believe that any other theist might not believe, certainly nothing of great or significant import.There have been many other tales of resurrection, Jesus is certainly not the only such example. Jews and Samritans believe that God will resurrect the dead. In the Bible there are three instances of resurrection in the Tanakh, the child raised from the dead by God after Elijah's prayers, two by Elisha, the son of the woman and a body thrown into his tomb that touches dem bones dem bones.The Greeks had a whole parade of resurrected folk, many resurrected more than once.There was Osiris and Baal and a whole bunch of other middle eastern resurrected gods. Of course I not only call myself a Christian but am a member of one of the recognized chapters of Club Christian.But if we are honest doesn't the environment we grow up in determine which faith we join? If I had been born in Japan I'd more likely be Taoist or Shinto, if India then Buddhist, Muslim or Hindu. I grew up in the US in a southern religious family and was educated in Christian schools. I was lucky enough to also grwo up in an almost all Jewish neighborhood (I thought the lions ate all the other Christians) and got to spend time at friends houses and celebrate Sukkot, Savout and Passover with my friends, and experience Jesus would have had.So my education and life experiences has lead me to recognize the similarities between religions and to explore other religions which might not be as common in the Christian community as a whole.That does not change the fact that I am a Christian.My beliefs have been posted here in detail over the years but my beliefs do not depend on being factual, correct, logical, reasonable or rational.Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Well, that and the fact that I am a member of a recognized Protestant chapter of Club Christian with my name carved in stone in the chapel of a Protestant Christian school who has helped found missions (new churches), taught adult and children's Sunday school and ... I call myself a Christian because I are one. HUH?How is what I believe outside or in conflict with anything the Archbishop said? And understand, just because there is an Archbishop does not mean that the Archbishop defines individual belief. There are lots of areas where I and many other Episcopalians including Episcopal clergy disagree with the Archbishop's positions.Yet they are still Christians. That really is simple; what makes me specifically a Christian is that I are one. What makes me specifically a man is that I are one. What makes me specifically an American is that I are one.It really is that simple. Really you need to learn to read.Where have I said that I do not believe in a resurrected Jesus?I do not call myself a Jew (although Jesus was a Jew and never a Christian) because I am not a Jew.What is so hard for you to understand? No shit Little Beaver. Religious beliefs are a matter of Faith and personal experience. There is nothing to defend when it comes to beliefs. Someone can say they believe there was a Biblical flood and I would have no problems but when they say there was a Biblical flood then that is subject to criticism.Learn to actually read what I write.I have not said the Jesus was not resurrected. I have said that the stories are conflicting, not all support a physical resurrection and that it really doesn't matter whether or not Jesus existed, was resurrected, was bodily resurrected or was simply not a physical critter.It is what folk believe whether based on fact or fantasy that is determinant.

The 39 Articles were developed in the 1500's mainly to differentiate the CoE from the RCC and the various Calvinist churches, but we are not living in the 1500s. I know you keep saying that but it is simply wrong. But you have already admitted that there is no direct evidence to support that Jesus actually lived, died, was resurrected or ascended into heaven other then the bible stories. Certainly people believed those things but belief is not evidence of fact other than to state that is what folk believed or believe.So there is no support for the beliefs other than faith. If there is no external evidence of fact then does it matter whether or not the facts exist? Is it not simply a matter of what people believe is true?

Fine. That is you but learn to read what you write as well. You are supporting my position.You believe.That does not mean anything but that you believe. It says absolutely nothing about whether or not Jesus lived or was resurrected.

If I were raised in a Jewish environment and had been educated like Jesus as a Jew then I would likely be Jewish.Had I been raised as a Muslim I would likely be a Muslim.But I have said that before. Nope, no change of subject. Truth may well matter but as long as we are alive there is no way to determine the truth.It is what you believe, whether factual or not. And you continue to conflate belief and fact.Read what you write. Everything there deals with belief, not fact. Again, no, I don't say it is a good thing, I say it is irrelevant. There is no way to determine while we are alive whether that belief is based on fact or not. Your belief is sufficient as a basis of your Faith.I will repeat what I have said so many times here.I am a cradle Creedal Christian. I subscribe to the statement found in the Nicene Creed. I believe that.But there is no way to ever determine if that belief is based on fact or fiction, at least I can see no way as long as I am alive.So I acknowledge that my belief is only that, a belief and may well be wrong. That is simple honesty and acknowledgement of the reality of the situation.Christianity is the Path I follow, I understand that it almost certainly is wrong and incomplete just as any map is certainly wrong and incomplete.But it is still my path.That does not mean I don't also look at several different maps understanding that each different maps will be more accurate at times and places than the others and that as we go thorough life we need to test the data from the maps against the reality of the moment and place.But we are alive now and so the message of importance at this moment are those that deal with living this life. We try to live this life as well as we can following the parts of the map related to our time and place. It's possible there may be another life off the edges, beyond this time and place but we will look at that part of the map at another time and place.