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Author | Topic: The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Hi AZPaul3
I think that you actually presented jar's POV better than mine. I agree that we can't KNOW the truth of the resurrection in empirical terms.I agree that it is a matter of faith and that ultimately what we do in this life is what matters. (I would add the caveat that it isn't strictly what we do but what it is that motivates us to do what we do. ) I applaud jar for all those things that he has done. My point is simply this. Jar agrees that the beliefs he holds could be held by any of the Abrahamic religions, (as well as others) and if he had been born in Saudi that he would hold exactly the same views he does now and would in all probability be a Muslim. His beliefs then are essentially that of a generic theist and not specifically Christianity. I'm simply showing that there is a difference between calling oneself a Christian on the basis of culture as opposed to calling oneself a Christian on the conviction that God did something extraordinary in Jesus Christ which vindicates and validates Jesus' life and message.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
GDR writes: I would add the caveat that it isn't strictly what we do but what it is that motivates us to do what we do. And that is a key place where I disagree with you. I believe that what motivates folk is totally irrelevant. Nor do I say that if I were born in Saudi Arabia I would hold the same beliefs. I say that if I were born and raised in a different culture I would likely be whatever religious affiliation I was raised in. I said that I cannot think of any significant beliefs I hold that could not be held by those of other or even no beliefs. I do not think that may personal beliefs about Jesus or God are significant or important since as long as we are alive we can never determine if those beliefs are correct. If I was raised as a Jew or a Muslim or Buddhist or Taoist or Hindu then naturally I would likely not hold my current beliefs related to God or Jesus. But as long as we are alive is that important? Are there any beliefs about how we should live this life that could not be held by someone from any other belief or even no belief? Now as you know, after the offering we point out the "of your own have we offered you". It is an acknowledgement that what we have is actually Gods and we are simply stewards. Is that not something that could be held by anyone?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Are there any beliefs about how we should live this life that could not be held by someone from any other belief or even no belief? Now as you know, after the offering we point out the "of your own have we offered you". It is an acknowledgement that what we have is actually Gods and we are simply stewards. I Muslim or a Jew could pray that. However I agree that that is one of the more meaningful parts of the liturgy along with asking forgiveness for "what I have done and for what I have left undone". I suggest that motivation does matter from a Christian perspective and that is clear in the Gospels. If I am going to serve in the food bank I think it matters ultimately whether I am doing it so that I will look good to others or am I doing it out of simple love and compassion for others. It may not matter to the homeless person that is being fed, but I suggest that it matters to God because of us His love for us and for His desire that our hearts love unselfishly. When you look at Matthew 25 and the sheep and the goats parable the sheep didn't know they were feeding the hungry etc for/to Jesus. They just did it because that is what their heart told them they should do.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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GDR writes: If I am going to serve in the food bank I think it matters ultimately whether I am doing it so that I will look good to others or am I doing it out of simple love and compassion for others. How is that a uniquely Christian position? Can a Jew not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others? Can a Muslim not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others? Can a Hindu not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others? Can a Buddhist not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others? Can an atheist not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others? Can a (fill in the blank) not feed the hungry out of simple love and compassion for others?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: How is that a uniquely Christian position? It isn't and I never claimed it was. You just said that you disagreed with the concept so I gave my answer to what you disagreed with.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
GDR writes: I think that jars point and position is that it does not matter what one believes so much as it matters what one does for others versus what they had the capability to do. Christianity is about believing those things to be historically true. If they aren't true then Christianity is a sham and you seem to think that it is just fine to base one's life on something that is totally fictitious. If I didn't believe that Jesus lived and was resurrected by God then I certainly wouldn't call myself a Christian. This is why I see jar as the unofficial "Apostle to the Atheists". The jist of this belief is, according to jar, quote: In order to properly be an apostle to the atheists, one would have to be a cultural "doer" of good works,(simple love and compassion for others) non-religious, and holding logic, reason, and reality on a higher plane than belief. Edited by Phat, : added jabberwockySaying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
So you attack Carrier and I and you have nothing to back it up.
Typical.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
why are you so cynical? To be fair, you dont really know me and I dont really know you. I have nothing against you personally. I only attack positions which are, in my opinion, antichristian. Not that Jesus needs defending, mind you. There will be times when I come across as insufferably arrogant...im human and my character is still being developed.
It is my opinion, based on what I read and what I perceive, that some of these intellectual atheists are also arrogant...smug and self assured that their "facts" demolish any pretense of Christianity actually being true. It is my opinion that they are simply wrong. It is not a matter of evidence, since I have no objective evidence apart from my own character. It is a matter of faith and reasoned argumentation, which I am attempting to provide here. Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: This is why I see jar as the unofficial "Apostle to the Atheists". ... In order to properly be an apostle to the atheists, one would have to be a cultural "doer" of good works,(simple love and compassion for others) non-religious, and holding logic, reason, and reality on a higher plane than belief. Stop and think Phat. First what possible need would there ever be to be an apostle to atheists? When Jesus threw the great fish fry by the shore did He not jess feed everyone that was there and provide left overs for those who didn't get to the pachanga without asking if they believed in Him or even if they listened to what He said? When reality refutes a belief isn't it wise to throw the belief away no matter how strongly the belief is held? When I post here relating to religious subjects who am I responding to?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Of course it is about evidence. I posted that the Josephus and Tacitus references about your Jesus are probably not legitimate. You responded with a snide comment about a historian that you assumed was my source. It was actually an ad hominem against him and I. Against him that he has some sort of agenda and against me because you accused me of somehow blindly following him. Carrier is one of a few reputable historians I have read. He and the rest have reasoned, well argued arguments fo their positions. You have faith.
If you are going to make attacks be prepared to back them up or don't make them. Now, do you have any argument to show that the Josephus and Tacitus lines are original to them? Are you familiar with any of the scholarship on the issue? Or do you blindly believe their legitimacy because they back your religious beliefs? Why do you feel a personal attack because someone presents solid evidence and reason that counters your belief system? When you blindly attack you look silly and unconfident in your beliefs. You criticize Jar but he is at least intellectually honest about his beliefs and how they relate to verifiable reality. Don't attack me because you beliefs do not stand up to scrutiny.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: I only attack positions which are, in my opinion, antichristian. Have you looked up the text of either Josephus or Tacitus? Let's first look at Josephus:
quote: Now remember that this was written about sixty years after Jesus death and that there is only a passing mention that might refer to Jesus and another reference that most certainly is not Jesus Christ. The second passage from Josephus is:
quote: Again it is simply a secondhand report of what we know, that there was a group that called themselves Christians and claimed that Jesus performed miracles and that there were prophecies regarding Him. And from Tacitus, written over 75 years after Jesus death.
quote: Both sources simply repeat the same material that was current in the Christian culture but are just reports of what people believed not evidence of any facts beyond belief. Edited by jar, : appalin spallinAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
So even if they are not interpolations neither are evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus Christ. All it is is hearsay.
Edited by Theodoric, : forgot second "they" Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Correct. At best they are reports of reports.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Bringing back some of these old arguments and rethinking them.....
jar writes: True. God is the Creator of all seen and unseen. Thus logically is responsible for the entire universe. One could argue that Lucifer chose to become Satan. Critics would argue that God allowed the choice.
If God knows the end results then all of the responsibility for the end result lies with God. jar writes: So what? If God has ultimate foreknowledge and the critter chooses wrongly and is damned as a result, God is only responsible in that God allowed the possibility of "damning".The critter chose the path to damnation. God only foresaw it occurring. Why would such a God be evil? This depends if God only had one path as an option in that persons life.
If God knows the end result, the decision is not independently made. jar writes: Yes. The only area I reserve doubts about is our thoughts. If we become the decisions that we make, we are only responsible if we actually make those decisions. Perhaps God could foreknow what I would ultimately decide. You may say that such a God created only to punish(in the event I ended up in Hell) and are of course free to believe that. You are also free to believe that such a God is evil and should be opposed. God, if God exists would not get her panties in a bunch simply because you thought her evil and opposed her. Do you believe that GOD creates all that is, seen and unseen? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : rewordingSaying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So you have no problem with a God who knowingly creates life just to then damn that critter to eternal torment.
Got it.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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