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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Where should there be "The right to refuse service"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Yes, hate speech is near the top of the list of speech I must work to protect. Not really. Nothing's going to happen if you don't.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Not really. Nothing's going to happen if you don't. How sure are you of that?Love your enemies!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Absent coercion, I would never make a 'kill all homos' cake, and I would very likely express displeasure regarding a bakery that did such work. I assume you would support my right express that position by printing up my banner in your print shop so that I can picket your bakery. Absolutely I would print your banner even though yo are mixing everything up and once again demonstrating an inability to read. You do understand that a "Kill all homos" cake was one example where I specifically said their is a question whether I would provide such service.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
CS writes: jar writes: Yes, hate speech is near the top of the list of speech I must work to protect. Not really. Nothing's going to happen if you don't. I'm not sure what you mean. How do I know nothing would happen?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Jar writes: Did you actually read what I have written? There are some stock phrases that should be banned from EVC - this is one of them.
For example I would support someone saying "All gays should die" but if it said "Go out and kill gays" If you think that there's a morally defensible position in either of those two statements you've got some work to do. The moral position is that both are wrong and should be resisted in any way possible. The minimum is not helping the bigots propogate their message.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
jar writes: It is the speech I most disagree with that I must protect. The limit, as I said back in Message 374 is with speech that incites illegal activity or violence.
quote: A noble distinction, but clear & present danger is kind of fuzzy. One the major problems with homo sapiens is that they are so susceptable to stupid advertising. Damn it all to hell. Commercials actually WORK!- xongsmith, 5.7d
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If you think that there's a morally defensible position in either of those two statements you've got some work to do. The moral position is that both are wrong and should be resisted in any way possible. The minimum is not helping the bigots propogate their message. I know that is your position. You've got some work to do. Free Speech is important. Morality does not enter into the issue. Whether or I not I feel any speech is moral or immoral is totally irrelevant. I have no more right to try to impose my morality on others than they have to try to impose their morality on me. I can see no possible justification for suppressing speech whether moral or immoral. In fact, speech I consider immoral is the speech I need to support. One of those statements recommends illegal activities while the other only supports a perhaps immoral thought.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
A noble distinction, but clear & present danger is kind of fuzzy. One the major problems with homo sapiens is that they are so susceptable to stupid advertising. Damn it all to hell. Commercials actually WORK! I certainly agree and tried to point out just that issue. And that is where the exact wording of the speech as well as the particular details of the incident need to be known. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
...even though yo are mixing everything up and once again demonstrating an inability to read. You do understand that a "Kill all homos" cake was one example where I specifically said their is a question whether I would provide such service. And? You cannot seem to make a call that I find quite clear. That's an appropriate distinction for me to make. So I read just fine. You have taken the position that the more odious the message, the more bound to help you would feel as owner of a print shop. You apply some limits regarding incitement, but they are fairly fuzzy. I feel a bit differently. I feel that the more odious messengers require a more vigorous defense of their rights, but as for spreading the message, the messenger has to pay his own freight which might include buying his own printing press. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You have taken the position that the more odious the message, the more bound to help you would feel as owner of a print shop. You apply some limits regarding incitement, but they are fairly fuzzy. I feel a bit differently. I feel that the more odious messengers require a more vigorous defense of their rights, but as for spreading the message, the messenger has to pay his own freight which might include buying his own printing press. Not exactly. It is not a matter of bound to help but rather the fact that the business is printing or cake making or space rental and the business is not censorship. And yes, the boundaries are fuzzy and mutable and will depend on the total conditions of the particular incident when it comes to where the legal/illegal line lies. The function of a print shop or bakery or meeting hall rental is not to make the judgements beyond what is reasonable based on the available knowledge at the time. I understand many will feel differently about this but I have tried to express my opinion of where to draw the line. Hopefully it will not be a straight or uniform line but laws seldom consider anything except straight, uniform lines. But I do find the idea that there could be prohibited hate speech odious, repulsive, revolting.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
But I do find the idea that there could be prohibited hate speech odious, repulsive, revolting. Failing to let you use my printer is not the same thing as my prohibiting your speech. Your definition of "free speech", which seems to include such a thing is peculiar enough so that your impression of what is odious isn't very informative. Besides that though, even you have acknowledged that there is inciting hate speech that you would not help with. Apparently you find your own position odious and repulsive using your own petard. Edited by NoNukes, : grammar tweakin' point makin'Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Besides that though, even you have acknowledged that there is inciting hate speech that you would not help with. Apparently you find yourself odious and repulsive using your own standard. Too funny. You still seem unable to read. I imagine you can point out where I said that there is hate speech I think should be prohibited other then the very limited case of clear incitement to violence or illegal activity which is speech that might be prohibited whether it involved hate or not. I cannot think of any hate speech or speech that was intended to engender hatred that should be prohibited right off hand. There might be such speech but I cannot think of any at the moment.
Failing to let you use my printer is not the same thing as my prohibiting your speech. Your definition of "free speech", which seems to include such a thing is peculiar enough so that your impression of what is odious isn't very informative. That depends I believe on whether you print for a business. If it is your personal non-business printer then I believe you are well within your rights. If though you are a business, a printer by trade, and nothing in the request is illegal or incites violence or illegal activity, then I believe your personal opinion about the morality or rightness or content should be irrelevant. What for me is odious is censorship, not the speech.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Capt Stormfield Member Posts: 429 From: Vancouver Island Joined:
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Should I be forced to serve that "class" of people regardless of my personal feelings on the subject? The thing is, being an asshole isn't a class. You're not allowed to refuse service based on their "class". You ought to be, and are, allowed to refuse service to people for just being crappy customers. Members of the KKK are not a protected class, and you can just tell them to take their cake idea and shove it.
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Capt Stormfield Member Posts: 429 From: Vancouver Island Joined: |
I really believe that it is the speech I very most disagree with that I must allow. You may be confusing your responsibilities with those of the government. Edit after reading farther in the thread: I think you are seriously confused about the concept of free speech. You are not the government. You have no obligation to facilitate the speech of others beyond discouraging the government from impeding it. Acting on your own opinions by withdrawing your consent and cooperation from the actions of others is not censorship, nor does it impinge on their free speech. I am baffled by your reasoning. Edited by Capt Stormfield, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
oo funny. You still seem unable to read. Or perhaps you do not write clearly. Given that you have acknowledged that there are messages that you might not print, then your mindset contains exactly the position that you have called odious. Messages such as "kill all homos" are apparently pretty close to being within that mindset depending on the context or whatever.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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