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Author Topic:   Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 886 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 71 of 928 (728807)
06-03-2014 9:14 AM


Denial of service and not the person?
I think Faith may have made o good point somewhere upthread when she suggested that it was a matter of denying a particular service rather than a particular group or individual. Should a person have the right to deny a specific service that is offensive as long as it doesn't extend into areas of general services that would exclude individuals.
For example, if a member of the KKK came in and wanted you to bake a cake for their rally that said "We hate *****", you should be free to respond, "I don't provide that service (making cakes that promote hatred and bigotry). However, I do bake cakes, so I can bake a cake with no inscription on it and you can write whatever you want on it."
Could this same response be made to a same sex couple who want a wedding cake? "I don't provide that service (same sex wedding cakes) but I do bake wedding cakes. I can make you a wedding cake and sell you two sets of bride/groom cake toppers and you can put them on yourself."
How would those two situations be different?
Would that be enough to ease the conscious of the person who doesn't support same-sex marriage?
HBD
Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by PaulK, posted 06-03-2014 9:26 AM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 06-03-2014 9:58 AM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 06-03-2014 7:40 PM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 90 by Modulous, posted 06-03-2014 8:39 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 886 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 72 of 928 (728808)
06-03-2014 9:25 AM


Another question.
Does anyone see a distinction between secular marriage (marriage recognized by the state) and religious marriage (recognized by the church). Should churches be forced to perform same-sex marriages and therefore sanction such marriages? Or should we recognize that there is two separate aspects to marriage, a legal, state sanctioned aspect and a religious, church sanctioned aspect?
Or to put it another way, should churches reserve the right to deny this service?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 06-03-2014 9:32 AM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 77 by NoNukes, posted 06-03-2014 10:01 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 886 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 359 of 928 (754987)
04-02-2015 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Minnemooseus
04-02-2015 9:32 PM


Re: NPR - Southern Baptist Minister: Religious Liberty Law Permits Denial Of Some Service
I heard this too, Moose. I thought he made a good point that no one should be forced to use his/her speech to support something he/she did not agree with. He used himself performing a wedding as an example, and I thought it was very sensible. And I was pretty much agreeing with him. But then he took that concept to wedding cakes... ??
I don't think this would be a bad way to frame this issue - not requiring someone to use their speech to support something they don't agree with, but then the problem is deciding what is considered speech in this context. Wedding cakes, flowers and the like, I don't think qualify.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-02-2015 9:32 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by jar, posted 04-02-2015 11:00 PM herebedragons has replied
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 886 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 363 of 928 (754993)
04-03-2015 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by jar
04-02-2015 11:00 PM


Re: NPR - Southern Baptist Minister: Religious Liberty Law Permits Denial Of Some Service
No, I get it jar, and I agree with the basic premise. To me where things get sticky is when one person's rights are put aside for the rights of another. I think that people shouldn't be so quick to cast stones at a particular group of people because they feel they have the right to exercise their freedoms. It goes both ways! This is a significant shift in culture that will take some time to sort out.
To me a good example is smoking in restaurants or other public buildings. I agree that people have a right to smoke if they so choose; I would not want to infringe on that right. But I have a right to not smoke that also should not be infringed upon. When someone sitting behind me in a restaurant is exercising their right to smoke, they are forcing me to breathe smoke which infringes on my right to not smoke. It becomes a balancing act to accommodate everyone's rights. (I am so glad they passed a law in Michigan prohibiting smoking in public buildings, but I am sure many people felt it infringed on their rights)
I think that is where we are at here, with this issue. We still need to respect people's right to believe what they believe, even if we see it as bigoted or discriminating. I think we all agree that a baker should have the right to refuse to bake a cake for a KKK rally where they wanted to have "We hate ******!" printed on the cake. And I think this pastor made a good point as to why this is... because it forces the baker to use his speech to endorse something he doesn't believe in. This is also the same reason why that pastor should not be forced to perform a gay marriage - it would force him to use his speech to endorse something he doesn't agree with.
To me, I think that is an obvious and important line to draw in preventing one person's freedoms from infringing on another's. But there is still a lot of grey area involved. It seems even baking a generic cake for a KKK rally would make me uncomfortable; it would be a form of endorsement, would it not? Wouldn't knowingly baking a cake for that type of event suggest that you approve of it - or at the very least don't find it repulsive? Should I be forced to serve that "class" of people regardless of my personal feelings on the subject?
Why would baking a wedding cake be all that different?
The problem, I think is it becomes a slippery slope - what services would you have the right to refuse because it "endorses" something? A lot of services could be justified on those grounds...
The bottom line for me is we need to find a way to preserve everyone's basic rights - even if you don't agree with their position. It seems the "Christian" position (not meaning all Christians or the "True" Christian position) is being thrown under the bus when all they are really saying is that they have rights too. I agree that no one should have the right to discriminate, but I don't think it is as cut-and-dried as it has been made out to be.
I think that pastor's point is a good one... no one should be forced to use their speech to endorse a position that don't agree with. Working out the particulars of that... not quite so easy.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by jar, posted 04-02-2015 11:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by NoNukes, posted 04-03-2015 8:30 AM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 367 by jar, posted 04-03-2015 9:34 AM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 370 by Tangle, posted 04-03-2015 10:47 AM herebedragons has replied
 Message 403 by Capt Stormfield, posted 04-04-2015 12:55 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 886 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 380 of 928 (755018)
04-03-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Tangle
04-03-2015 10:47 AM


Re: NPR - Southern Baptist Minister: Religious Liberty Law Permits Denial Of Some Service
But the baker would be expected to bake a cake for the KKK without the writing - that's just normal business.
I am thinking more like a guy comes in and says "Hey, we need a cake for our KKK meeting to celebrate 50 years of keeping this country pure of undesirables." I would be inclined to not want to provide that service. It would not be a cause that I would want to endorse in any way. Now of course, if the guy just came in and wanted a cake, what grounds would there be to refuse? I am just not sure how baking a cake for a gay wedding is significantly different given that a person does not want to endorse such an activity.
What if they asked to have "God endorses this wedding" imprinted on the cake? Would that go to far?
Personally, I am not really in favor of gay marriage, but I don't think I would refuse to bake a wedding cake or in any way treat them as undesirables. But, I would also not want to give the impression that I endorse (nor condemn) such a wedding . So I don't know... ???
Thank God I don't bake cakes!!!!
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Tangle, posted 04-03-2015 10:47 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2015 1:41 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
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