|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,915 Year: 4,172/9,624 Month: 1,043/974 Week: 2/368 Day: 2/11 Hour: 1/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Where should there be "The right to refuse service"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
|
Jar writes: Free Speech is important. We can agree on that at least.
Morality does not enter into the issue. Morality is central to the issue. Helping propogate a dangerous and disgusting message is obviously immoral.
Whether or I not I feel any speech is moral or immoral is totally irrelevant. That's silly. If the message conveyed by the speech was a moral one, there would be no debate. It's only because it is an immoral message that this discussion is happening.
I have no more right to try to impose my morality on others than they have to try to impose their morality on me. Firstly, and legalities aside, refusing to print a sign that you find immoral is not imposing your morality on others - you do not have a moral responsibility to help others say disgusting things. Your moral duty is quite the opposite. Secondly, their freedom of speech is their right to impose their morality on you. Your freedom of speech is to tell them that they are dangerous bigots and while you respect their right to say the nasty stuff they say, they can buy their own printing press to say it.
I can see no possible justification for suppressing speech whether moral or immoral. In fact, speech I consider immoral is the speech I need to support. I can. freedom of speech is a qualified right - not an absolute. But that is beside the point. You are not suppressing freedom of speech by refusing to print messages of hate - you're excercising your moral perogative. The speech is theirs to make, not yours. There is no obligation to support others' immoral acts, in fact your moral duty is to do quite the opposite and fight the bigots wherever you find them. That's not suppressing free speech, it's defending our democracy.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Not exactly. It is not a matter of bound to help but rather the fact that the business is printing or cake making or space rental and the business is not censorship. And yes, the boundaries are fuzzy and mutable and will depend on the total conditions of the particular incident when it comes to where the legal/illegal line lies. The function of a print shop or bakery or meeting hall rental is not to make the judgements beyond what is reasonable based on the available knowledge at the time. There is nothing that prevents you from adding a disclaimer to the cake\banner\rental agreement\etc So the baker can add writing on the cake that the views expressed on the cake are not the views of the baker. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
Or perhaps you do not write clearly. Given that you have acknowledged that there are messages that you might not print, then your mindset contains exactly the position that you have called odious. Messages such as "kill all homos" are apparently pretty close to being within that mindset depending on the context or whatever. Bullshit. Really, read what I write. I said I might not print them not because I find them odious but because they encourage violence or illegal activities. Even if I fully approved of such speech I would have questions about printing it.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
In fact, speech I consider immoral is the speech I need to support. God, I hope not. Immoral speech may be speech you need to make sure government does not censor. If for your own political reasons you feel bound to help further the spread of the immoral speech as a social responsibility toward free speech, even though you disagree with the political sentiment expressed, you most certainly are welcome to do so. But the only thing needed of you is to oppose any censorship by any level of government. Further, I submit, your social responsibility should be to oppose any support or spread of immoral speech as long as the government is not involved in this opposition.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You may be confusing your responsibilities with those of the government. Edit after reading farther in the thread: I think you are seriously confused about the concept of free speech. You are not the government. You have no obligation to facilitate the speech of others beyond discouraging the government from impeding it. Acting on your own opinions by withdrawing your consent and cooperation from the actions of others is not censorship, nor does it impinge on their free speech. I am baffled by your reasoning.
I may (and very likely do) have a different idea about who is responsible. I happen to believe the right of free speech requires all of us as well as our governments to protect speech just as I believe we each have a duty towards all others.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Again, businesses are not individuals.
A printers job is to print, a bakers job is to bake, the rental agency's job is to rent.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
Yes, I might agree with that although as I have said, it will depend on individual circumstances of that particular incident.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
God, I hope not. Immoral speech may be speech you need to make sure government does not censor. If for your own political reasons you feel bound to help further the spread of the immoral speech as a social responsibility toward free speech, even though you disagree with the political sentiment expressed, you most certainly are welcome to do so. But the only thing needed of you is to oppose any censorship by any level of government. Further, I submit, your social responsibility should be to oppose any support or spread of immoral speech as long as the government is not involved in this opposition. I sincerely think we need to go far beyond simply preventing the government from censorship. Today more than ever control of media and what passes for news means that it falls on us, the individual, to act to protect speech. But again, we re not talking about individuals but businesses and I very strongly oppose the idea that business are individuals and so have individual rights.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
|
So the baker can add writing on the cake that the views expressed on the cake are not the views of the baker. It's in the fine print between the layers. But, no fine print necessary, really. Government, even as a condition of my business license, cannot compel me to political speech I do not support any more than it can compel me to silence on political speech I do support. If the customer is offended that I will not express his political sentiments in my work then too damn bad. If the customer is not asking for me to express a political sentiment in my work then I have no reason to refuse service.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Today more than ever control of media and what passes for news... ...is free speech. Free speech is a bitch, ain't it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yes, free speech can be a bitch.
At issue is whether or not businesses have any right of free speech.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
At issue is whether or not businesses have any right of free speech. Businesses are not animate and cannot speak. What you wish to censor is people using the business to say what they want to say. Somehow you've decided that a gang of KKK members should be able to speak freely yet another group of people who have gathered for a financial purpose should not have that right. I understand why you and lots of other people might feel that way. But then I look at the great win the business community helped achieve last week in Indiana, and I wonder just what kind of speech god you serve.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Businesses are not animate and cannot speak. What you wish to censor is people using the business to say what they want to say. Somehow you've decided that a gang of KKK members should be able to speak freely yet another group of people who have gathered for a financial purpose should not have that right. Again, where the hell did I ever say or suggest such stuff?
I understand why you and lots of other people might feel that way. But then I look at the great win the business community helped achieve last week in Indiana, and I wonder just what kind of speech god you serve. Too funny. Where did I say what you claim is my position?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Again, where the hell did I ever say or suggest such stuff? I quoted the relevant statement, Jar. It is no great mystery where I got the idea from. And you've expressed similar statements elsewhere about the rights of corporations and the treatment of corporations as people being undesirable. It turns out that corporations are controlled by moneyed groups of people. Instead of continually accusing people of not being able to read, you might instead defend the silly positions that you express . Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
At issue is whether or not businesses have any right of free speech. Well, the courts say they do and until the courts or the people change this they have that right the same as any individual or political party or girl's club or ...
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024