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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Where should there be "The right to refuse service"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
The only reason this nation needed to legislate in regard to the treatment of black people because they were rioting and burning. When a people's rights and lives have been trampled for so long this is often the only recourse to achieve liberty. Just ask the founding fathers. Good old American tradition. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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I disagree. I think that a society in which there are places you don't want to go, because of your sexuality, colour or gender, is a society in need of fixing. And part of the toolbox to fix it are anti-discrimination laws and the enshrining of legal equality.
And those laws don't get introduced just because of rioting and burning. They got introduced in the UK without any such impetus. And the laws in both our countries, seeking to prevent sex discrimination also got introduced without women burning anything or rioting (though there were some demonstrations). They got introduced because people didn't want their societies to tolerate racial or sex discrimination. Me, I want to be part of a society which has laws prohibiting discrimination based on sexuality. Not out of sense of intrusive protectiveness - but because I don't want my society to be a homophobic one. That won't be achieved in my lifetime - but it might in my grandchildren's, if we now speak up, educate, confront, and slap down the homophobes here and there.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
vimesey writes
quote:I agree that such a society needs fixing. But legislating it is the wrong way to go. quote:The US is not England. May I remind you that you guys dumped all your religious nutjobs here back when. quote:You can't legislate people's belief system. You just can't. The communists tried this and it failed miserably. May I suggest an alternative? I have always believed that sunshine is the best disinfectant. I believe it can be applied here.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Don't kid yourself. The only reason this nation needed to legislate in regard to the treatment of black people because they were rioting and burning. Too many liberals are too quick to forget that these anti-discrimination laws were put in because the country was burning. It wasn't because people were somehow changed. Which legislation are you referring to? Because the legislation I recall, namely the civil rights acts of 1964 and the civil rights acts of 1957 were not responses to rioting. I'd recommend taking a look at who was committing the violence on whom prior to 1967 or so. I suspect that someone needs to pick up a history text and gain some context about the relationships between black and white people over 400 years of history in this country, because your post reflects ignorance of the highest order. I agree with you that the current discrimination you face is similar in some ways to what black people faced in the 1960s. On the other hand, I suspect your ancestors did not arrive here chained to the bottom of a boat. I also suspect that the fact that you can even served at venues where people give you a dirty looks and whisper behind your back is due to what black people went through a couple hundred years before your butt saw the light of day.
My partner and I have learned to avoid any place that even hints at being religious. If we go into a store and we observe someone being religious or mentions god, we just leave. It's not that hard to avoid being discriminated against. Wow brother. I'm sure I have no idea what you go through on a regular basis. I'm disgusted by the treatment you receive. Unfortunately, such treatment does not seem to translate into sensitivity for the plight of others. Black people are seemingly even more homophobic than other people. And your understanding of history is about as one sided and racist as anything I've read or heard. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
You can't legislate people's belief system. You just can't. The communists tried this and it failed miserably. For the most part, the civil rights act of 1957 and 1964 have been smashing successes. You apparently have no clue what life was like in this country prior to 1950 or so.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The distinction between a public and private business makes no sense here. All businesses are both private and public. Is the bar at the Augusta National Golf Club a public enterprise or a private one? I'm talking about the Club that had no black members until 1990 and that admitted its first female member a couple of years ago.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Private I believe. Membership by invitation only. 300 members at a time. Wiki says
Location Augusta, Georgia, U.S.Established 1933 Type Private Total holes 18
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
My point was that you can refuse service to somebody if he steals from you but not if he steals from somebody else. What he does outside your premises is none of your business.
ringo writes:
Which is exactly what my example consisted of with the exception of the exact title of the magazine. WTF??? You should only be able to refuse service to me if I steal your favorite copy of Wrestling Fever.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
My point was that you can refuse service to somebody if he steals from you but not if he steals from somebody else. What he does outside your premises is none of your business. And my point is that you spent considerable time arguing with me after I gave exactly the example and now you deign to agree with me. What was the point of all that? Did you change your mind. In fact, all of the examples I presented were of removing people after behavior and not because of some propensity for being rude. Like kicking out a person after he insulted a paying customer. You insisted that my option was to report him to the state 'insult department' or some similar rubbish. Nobody in this discussion has raised the issue of kicking people out without provocation that occurred in the business. I even stated that ex cons were welcome. I have to conclude that a good number of your posts are arguments for the sake of arguing. Noted. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Private I believe. The question was rhetorical. I assumed that many if not most people would know the answer.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Nonsense. The thread stems from the question of refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Nobody has said anything about gay people misbehaving while ordering a wedding cake. It's all about their behaviour away from the premises.
Nobody in this discussion has raised the issue of kicking people out without provocation that occurred in the business. NoNukes writes:
Good answer! Good answer! Allow me to comment at length on how much I agree with you....
I have to conclude that a good number of your posts are arguments for the sake of arguing.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I realize, but my thought was cut short by real life, comment looks a bit odder than intended. What I intended to also convey was that despite being private, the question as to whether we should permit such groups to exclude and which groups it should be permitted to be excluded is not simply settled with drawing the distinction.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
duplicate
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Nonsense. The thread stems from the question of refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding. In case it is not clear, I am referring to the discussion you, I Cat Sci and a few others conducted relate to my hypothetical barbershop. Regardless of where the discussion stems from, you did not limit your remarks to baking cakes.
Allow me to comment at length on how much I agree with you. That's a win for ringo in a game no one except ringo was playing.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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vimesey Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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legislating it is the wrong way to go. Exclusively, no. But as a part of fixing things, it's essential. There's all sorts of interesting debates we can have about what a society entails, but I've not heard of any definitions which don't include common rules of behaviour. And when the rules are to try to prevent or limit harm being done to people, we make them laws, rather than mere social expectations. Preventing harm to others is important, and there are folks who don't give a stuff about social expectations - so we have to be in a position to bring the force of law to bear.
The US is not England. May I remind you that you guys dumped all your religious nutjobs here back when. Yeah, I wasn't involved in that.
You can't legislate people's belief system. Which is not what legislation does. It legislates people's behaviour. They can believe whatever they like.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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