|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Where should there be "The right to refuse service"? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
quote: I don't know the details of these cases, but I got the sense that the gays in question sought out the bakers in order to make a point - rather than just happened to go into their local baker to ask for a cake. If it was the latter, then I agree, they should take no prisoners.
quote: Me neither, but I think it's tactically wrong to go out hunting bigots, it'll just give them reasonable cause for their persecution complex - as we see with Faith. It's better that they're just marginalised and ignored.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
|
Faith writes: It's crazy the way the Nazis also passed laws against zealots practicing religious bigotry in commercial transactions Very similar actually, since they were accused of religiously motivated atrocities against "Christians." Putting an end to acts of bigotry by Christians in modern America does not equal Nazis laying groundwork for the Holocaust. Both Jews and gays, then and now, provoked bigotry from outraged "Christian" sensibilities. You can plug modern Christians into the Nazi equation if you wish, but I don't think you'd like where they fit. Christians in general, and European Christians in particular, have a long record of persecuting Jews and other religious minorities. The Nazis were a particularly pure and vicious distillation of your creed. There is no devil, dear--we made him up to explain the blood on our hands and our taste for it. Dig through the bone mountain memorializing the human stain, and it's all people, all the way down."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
also close the Muslim businesses that won't cater to Jews, or won't bake cakes for gay weddings? Maybe later. Right now the christians are the persecution target of choice. There are so many of them. And all that moaning and groaning and gnashing of teeth you hear when you crush them is just so satisfying.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
|
I don't know the details of these cases, but I got the sense that the gays in question sought out the bakers in order to make a point - rather than just happened to go into their local baker to ask for a cake. If it was the latter, then I agree, they should take no prisoners. I don't believe that those four college students stumbled into Woolworth's by accident. They went there to make a point. Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Sure, go right ahead and build up the lies against us so you can feel really really justified when Christians have lost all their businesses. You are no Christian, you don't have to be concerned. It will probably help when they destroy our property and beat us up too. Lies? You're saying that nobody ever argued that racial purity was God's will? Wrong. Typical fundy. He/she is told to obey the law, and you'd think they'd been thrown to the lions the way they protest. Nobody is coming to beat you up Faith. Did you forget that you don't even own a business that allows you to discriminate?
You are no Christian Yes, I am. But I am not a Christian bigot.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
The Christians being put out of business never denied gays anything or treated them differently from anybody else. This is pretty much a lie. The didn't bake a cake they'd have baked for just about anyone else without asking a single religious question. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase your statement just a bit. Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Well, they'll be out of business for violating. In one case it's a health code; in the other case it's a human rights code. It makes no difference whether they are Christians or Muslims or atheists. They have no special rights to violate any code.
Christians will be out of business because they are Christians and for no other reason but that's exactly the same as being out of business for violating the health code. Exactly.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
God's law does contradict a lot of human ideas of law. He'll win in the end though. Those choosing against Him really should consider that.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Faith writes:
So leave God's justice to God. Let he who is without sin refuse to bake a cake.
God's law does contradict a lot of human ideas of law. He'll win in the end though. Those choosing against Him really should consider that.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
A judge has ruled that a Christian-run bakery discriminated against a gay customer by refusing to make a cake with a pro-gay marriage slogan. Ashers Baking Company, based in County Antrim, was taken to court by gay rights activist Gareth Lee. A Belfast judge said, as a business, Ashers was not exempt from discrimination law. [........] The judge said Ashers is "conducting a business for profit", and it is not a religious group.The firm was found to have discriminated against Mr Lee on the grounds of sexual orientation as well as his political beliefs. The judge said she accepted that Ashers has "genuine and deeply held" religious views, but said the business was not above the law. 'Gay cake' row: Judge rules against Ashers bakery - BBC NewsJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
vimesey Member (Idle past 102 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
It's worth adding as well, that the pro-gay marriage slogan wasn't just a gratuitous request by the campaigner - it had a legitimate purpose, in that the cake was ordered for use at an event to support an International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia.
That said, I suspect that the activist ordering the cake deliberately chose a Christian bakery to make a point. The point's a fair one to make though. It's also worth noting that both sides agreed that the damages would be a fairly nominal 500, which is being donated to charity. No one is being ruined, as a result of this test case.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
It's worth adding as well, that the pro-gay marriage slogan wasn't just a gratuitous request by the campaigner Interesting. So in this case, we don't just have a cake for a legal marriage, we have the law requiring a bakery to make a statement cake. Does that change the equation for anyone? I'm waffling a bit on that issue. Are there any non violent statements (other than Nazi sympathetic ones) that a bakery could refuse to print. Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass The only thing I suggest is that genes died as a result of all those people and animals dying in the Flood, whose traits were lost to the species and therefore the alleles for those traits, so the genes just died and remain in the genome as corpses. Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Does that change the equation for anyone?
No for me. If the baker believes there is a problem, he/she can report it to the police. But bake the cake anyway.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NoNukes writes: Are there any non violent statements (other than Nazi sympathetic ones) that a bakery could refuse to print. He could legally not bake 'statement cakes' that aren't discriminatory (race, sex, religion, disability) - that's the test. He could bake a cake that was sympathetic to Nazis so long as it doesn't break other laws of harassment or incitement to harm etc. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
duplicate. Please ignore
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Je Suis Charlie Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass The only thing I suggest is that genes died as a result of all those people and animals dying in the Flood, whose traits were lost to the species and therefore the alleles for those traits, so the genes just died and remain in the genome as corpses. Faith
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024