Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?

It is possible that you are correct. But I'd need to see some pretty detailed statistics before I accepted any such thing.If it is happening I would attribute it to the fact that "christians" are finally losing their hold on power and with it there ability to persecute others. Having the power to extend your beliefs and bigotry into others lives wrenched away from you must seen very much like persecution to you.Too bad. Learn to share nicely.

In addition there is the absurdity of claiming Roman Catholics persecute Christians. Roman Catholics definitely are Christians and there has been a long history of Christian vs Christian persecutions.

Here's an email received by a Christian teacher from a minister in Mexico in December of 2012. Thought I'd be collecting more of this kind of information but this is it for now:Fifty million Bible believers murdered in the Inquisition, and then I found out it's still going on in some Catholic countries:

Faith observes: The best thing on all levels is simply for you to give all religions up. There are wasting your life like drug dealers do. Think about how much money & energy you would save.But, no - you are trapped.

You're right for once Faith; religious fundamentalism really isn't a nice thing is it?Luckily in most civilised countries the arguments have been reduced to the icing of cakes not hot irons up the backside.(Although I often think people like you have some residual sadness for its loss - a feeling of persecution seems a necessary part of the belief structure.)

And you actually believe even one word of that?AbE: In addition, even if it was true what does that have to do with the topic of this thread or the US?Roman Catholics are still Christians and no different than you and your Chapter of Club Christian or should I post what you have said should be done with Roman Catholics in the US?No one doubts that there are religious bigots in both camps.Edited by jar, : see AbE:

I guess if it's on facebook it must be true.

Where is this claim from? I can't find anything about it by searching for it. I believe a claim like this should have some evidence to support the fact that it happened.

That's legal action against businesses that happen to be run by Christians. It's like prosecuting a Christian for murder - the Christianity isn't pertinent to the offense that the Christian committed. That's accusations of hate speech for preaching hate - i.e. for giving the hateful portions of the Bible precedence over the loving portions.

You seem to think that redefining terms changes reality. The fact remains that Christians have done nothing different over the last decade or so but these new definitions have been invented and they do specifically target Christians, redefining the same beliefs we've always had so that they are now criminal, and this is how persecution of Christians has been escalating, which was my point.So now standard Bible preaching is "hate speech" though it never was over the previous millennia, and our stance on homosexuality and gay marriage is now a violation of civil rights after millennia of being just standard Bible teaching.You are all at pains to prove that there is no persecution of Christians, you even seem to want to deny that these redefinitions are new. But they are, and they do aim at criminalizing standard ancient Christian beliefs and actions. At the very least honesty should require you to acknowledge that much.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I picked it up from another Christian Nobody's website like my own and it's not clear where that person got it. Searching didn't turn up that particular incident for me either, but it did turn up reports on this sort of persecution being common in that region of Mexico, such as Persecuted Christians in Mexico kept from returning home. And Here's another one .And here is a Google page with a variety of points of view.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

No beliefs have been made criminal.

Ah yes, another redefinition aimed at pretending what is actually happening is not happening. At least it's another semantic dodge intended to obscure the reality.OK, how about "Preaching or acting upon our ancient traditional beliefs is now being defined as criminal, by redefining it as "hate speech" and a "violation of civil rights." But there is no such thing as a genuine belief that one DOESN'T preach or act upon. Really, shouldn't you just acknowledge that this is what is happening?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Ah yes, another redefinition aimed at pretending what is actually happening is not happening. At least it's another semantic dodge intended to obscure the reality.

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No Faith. Your false claim that beliefs were being criminalised was an attempt to obscure the reality.

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OK, how about "Preaching or acting upon our ancient traditional beliefs is now being defined as criminal, by redefining it as "hate speech" and a "violation of civil rights." But there is no such thing as a genuine belief that one DOESN'T preach or act upon. Really, shouldn't you just acknowledge that this is what is happening?

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There,s no criminalisation of speaking beliefs either. And as the distinction between belief and action is part of the thinking behind the First Amendment - and equating freedom of belief with the right to act on that belief has very obvious problems - there's a valid point there.So all you are offering is a defence of bigotry on the grounds of "tradition". That's not really much of a defence.

My point was simple and factual and you along with all the rest here are engaged in obscuring it. I outlined changes over the last few decades to show that it's only very recently that any kind of law has existed that has brought about legal action against Christians living according to their beliefs.Laws that never existed before. That have subjected Christian business owners to criminal penalties for behaving as they always would have behaved on the basis of their Christian beliefs, and at least a few attempts to criminalize pastors for preaching what they always preach: the Bible, now redefined as hate speech.I gave a link showing that these actions have actually occurred. This is a new thing. Christianity hasn't changed but the laws are changing toward criminalizing them. This is fact. Perhaps the Supreme Court will have an attack of sanity and rationality and not do what we expect them to do, but that's not very likely so this trend can only continue to increase.It's a new thing these laws, and they certainly have the power to criminalize standard Christian beliefs, having found a way to elevate gay marriage above Christian freedoms. So clever. And you all are bending over backwards to deny it or justify it, or whatever your particular method is.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.