Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?

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John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

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Taking it upon yourself to punish sin - whether by killing people outright or by refusing them service - is sin.ABE: Refusing somebody service is not warning them of the consequences of sin. You can warn them while setting a good example as a loving Christian instead of a hating one.Edited by ringo, : Added reply to Faith's edit.

Faith, there is a difference between not following an argument and not believing a pack of liesThe law you object to is the addition of gays to the groups of people protected from discrimination from businesses.That cannot be honestly said to criminalise belief or to target Christians.Indeed, those accusations could more fairly (but still, I believe falsely) be said of the original passage of the laws, when they protected the rights of blacks against the Christian segregationists. Which you have never objected to,

That is because there is no persecution of Christians in the US. To claim that there is is simply a lie.

I guess only a Christian can see the real motivation in the recent laws: taking down the Bible. And for the umpteenth time there is nothing Biblical in support of racism no matter what some misguided "Christians" claimed.

Funny if it's a lie that I showed how there wasn't persecution and then there started to be persecution. It's a demonstrated fact. But it's still just in the very beginning stages. Shouldn't be too long before it's far enough along to declare it a done deal.

Except you have totally failed to show that Christians in the US are being persecuted.

Well I have to give you all credit for creative ways of turning a very simple obvious point into a miserable mess of confusion and false accusation.Punishing sin? That's certainly not the intention. We simply don't want to participate in it, and please let's not go back through how in your opinion making a wedding cake or arranging flowers isn't participating in it. That's our judgment call, not yours, and why on earth would we risk the consequences if we didn't regard it as a mandate from God? We have to keep ourselves free from giving support to sin, it's God's job to judge it, not ours, and for the umpteen thousandth time we're very happy to help with anything that doesn't implicate us in support of gay marriage which is a slap in God's face. We'll sell you anything else, we might even personally walk you to another source. You can't warn about sin while participating in it. That's as good as saying, "Don't worry, you won't go to hell."

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I guess only a Christian can see the real motivation in the recent laws: taking down the Bible.

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You mean it takes a "Christian" to tell such obvious lies.

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And for the umpteenth time there is nothing Biblical in support of racism no matter what some misguided "Christians" claimed.

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And it doesn't matter. What I said was still true. New laws, put in place to demand that businesses go against the religious beliefs of many "Christians" like you can more justly be called an attack on their religious freedom than your complaint about the same laws when gays benefit.The idea that Christians should rule over others through lies and hate isn't found in the Bible either - but that is the real crux of this argument.

Either you just haven't bothered to read back to the beginning of this discussion or you are having a reading problem.

You sure know how to turn an innocent desire to obey God into an evil act deserving punishment. Basically the same mentality that is bringing about these laws.

What an idiotic place to draw the line. You won't sell a cake but you'll walk a gay couple to the competition? God Himself will laugh you out of the Last Judgement for that one. You "participate" in sin in any number of ways. When you pay your taxes you're participating in everything your government does, such as giving its blessing to gay marriage - and Jesus told you specifically to pay your taxes.

Perhaps I actually understand the meaning of "persecution"?Being a Christian gives no special privileges. Being sanctioned for breaking laws is not "persecution". No one has ever presented any possible Biblical justification for not baking a cake for a same-sex marriage.Sorry but your position fails on Biblical, moral and humanitarian grounds.

Trying to be the nice guy you claim we aren't doesn't get us anywhere does it? Oh well. You really can't see the difference between helping people get what they want and doing it yourself? I'll admit it could be a borderline case but I end up thinking no, as long as I'm not participating personally in the service desired I think it's OK. I guess somebody could talk me out of it though.

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You sure know how to turn an innocent desire to obey God into an evil act deserving punishment.

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I didn't say anything about deserving punishment.But there isn't anything innocent about what you are doing.

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Basically the same mentality that is bringing about these laws.

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Exactly - honesty, a sense of justice and a desire for a good and fair society. The fact that you oppose these - and see Christianity as being fundamentally opposed to them - says a lot about you.

Right, and here we have another Redefinition in order to avoid the plain truth. Denial and redefinition.