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Author | Topic: The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Not sure if I agree. Michaelangelo may well have never painted a painting that was "meant" to be seen by people alive today...and yet we do view his great paintings and they inspire us arguably as much as they did the intended audience. Not one word of any Bible was written for or to people living today. Who determines what is for us and/or what is addressed to us? If the author and/or artist is long since gone, the determination is made by us ourselves. If the author happened to be alive (eternally, even) we still determine what is written for us and what is written to us.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If the shoe fits....
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: So you are saying that God does not know what you will think? If God knows me, God allows me. I freely decide what i will think. God is hopefully present in that moment of decision. I believe that God is present in the future as well as the present. God is present before I arrive at that moment. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: So you are saying that God does not know what you will think? I will answer your question after asking you a question. Does God know what we are thinking at the present moment?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: perhaps God feels the same way and thus sees no relevance in knowing what we will decide. I have absolutely no way to know the answer and cannot see how it could in anyway be relevant.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Honestly I dont know. So yet again you refuse to answer the question even after claiming you would.So you are saying that God does not know what you will think? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You want me to say that I don't know if I have such a communion nor can I understand what it even means. Don't you! I will say that it (the communion) is a blessed hope. I base it on the words of your favorite Gospel... John. You have mentioned before how John was the step child of the Gospels and of how the message was changed. To me, it may well have more sizzle, but it is nevertheless still steak.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I agree with Faith in this argument. If Loving your neighbor as yourself" was the summation of the message...feeding, clothing, encouraging others...then there would have been no need for the first part.
The message is not just to go simply do. I have no problem with good works. I have no problem with the argument that doing good works proves that one believes the message...EXCEPT...that loving God...loving and knowing and talking with and listening to the Risen Christ is as essential. Maybe a lot of goats left behind are Christians, I dunno. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Do you mean you hope you are actually having some communion? My relationship with God--through Jesus Christ--is not simply some fervent wish.I will reevaluate your question again, since much has changed in my life and my perspective in the past year. I have no doubt in my mind that God is alive through jesus Christ. I have seen many examples of good and bad human behavior. Granted I cannot prove that theses observations--both in myself and others--were caused by God and there is of course no way to prove it. For me, evidence in the strict sense is not important. My belief is confirmed through my daily experience and I will admit to a degree of confirmation bias.So to answer your question, yes I do have hope. jar,addressing Faith writes: Lets say that the Bible is as you say. If so, why would I expect a world that is any different? The world itself and the modern media and the behavior of people on the street and in general is filled with errors,falsehoods,contradictions, and irrelevancies. Personally, I do not see the Bible as you see it. I value what is written more than I do what is said critically regarding the books. I don't believe that God and Christianity and belief itself are mere creations of the collective human mind.
How do you know it is from "Him" particularly when the Bible itself is so filled with errors, falsehoods, contradictions and irrelevancies?After all the devil can quote scripture. jar,addressing faith writes: You are free to reason as you like. I would advise you not to hold logic, reason, and reality in a higher regard than GOD. (unless logic, reason, reality and socratic wisdom are your conception of GOD.) What if I belong to a chapter of Club Christian that does not require I throw away my brain before entering? My issue is not with my mind. My issue is with my heart.
jar writes: Where you and I differ is the attribution of the source. You believe that humans invented the stories. I don't.
...no Bible is one book, one story, one tale but rather an anthology of anthologies written by people of different cultures, eras and mythos for people living in different eras, cultures and mythos. Not one word of any Bible was written for or to people living today. Of course that does not mean that the stories cannot be relevant today.So the Bible, whichever canon is being considered is a collection of writings done by humans of several evolving belief systems that were later selected by other humans, edited by other humans and compiled by other humans. And the Bible is also interpreted by humans. Some actually believe in a God who makes mistakes. The reason this makes sense to you is because you also believe that the God(s) in the bible are entirely human creations. I do not share this belief.
So the picture we should get from the various Bibles and Bible stories is one of evolution, of changing societies, beliefs, behavior and mythos. The picture you get is not the picture we should get.
So the Old Testament is a look at the evolving creation called Judaism and reflects many of the challenges, conflicts and differences of something as many faceted as Judaism. I would argue that the Jewish culture was trying to understand who God was. The question that might be asked is whether the evidence shows that the culture created God or whether God actually existed and was attempting to teach a culture how to behave...even as he foreknew that they would be involved in many wars. People blame god for killing innocents. And yet the evidence shows that it was the people who carried it out.
The New Testament has the similarities of being works written by and edited by and redacted by and canonized by other unknown people over several hundred years. The question I would ask is if we can determine that the writers were writing of their own imagination and motive or whether they were reporting something else.
The Bible (remember there is no such thing as "The Bible") is simply a human creation. You present a good case, but I wont buy what you are selling. I believe that the Bible was inspired by God and that while we all are human, the Creator of the universe desires communion with us.
Christianity is a human creation. They make claims like "Even the prophets didn't understand all the implications of what they were writing down of what God was telling them (Peter says this in the NT). All this is evidence that the whole thing was ultimately authored by God Himself." which only make the God character look truly stupid. If anyone looks stupid, it is not God. God authors your intelligence. He defined you before you were old enough to think to define Him.
Christianity has almost nothing to do with Jesus and Jesus was never a Christian anyway. Explain to me how you would want to decide to be a Christian if Jesus was not a Christian? Sounds like you are marketing a new religion here. But I'm a Christian. Most likely that is a result of family and environment but ultimately it's still a matter of personal decision. Edited by Phat, : fixed Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK thats an honest answer.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Yes. The God i worship is the Creator of all seen and unseen. The God I worship created Lucifer also, who chose to become Satan. I realize I'm describing God as I believe Him to be.
But that simply shows you totally misunderstand the argument, so let me try once again. Is God the Creator?jar writes: Yes. Does God create everything that is, seen and unseen?As a side-note, you and I disagree on the Gods we market. Perhaps we can find common ground. Lets pick up our foreknowledge/freewill argument again. You ask the questions. Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling+addedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jesus was born a Jew, raised as a Jew, preached to Jews, lived as a Jew, tried to reform Judaism and died as a Jew. If Jesus preached to Jews, why do you take matthew 25 as being for everyone? The fact is that Jesus preaches to everyone. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Actually I agree with this assessment. Jesus pissed the Jews off by pointing out that they are NOT the Chosen people. If Jesus were here today I imagine he would piss off most Christians by pointing out that they too are not the Chosen people. Sometimes i think I need to pray (and read the Bible) more, and argue online less. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes: Sometimes i think I need to pray (and read the Bible) more, and argue online less. Tangle writes: Perhaps. And I think that if you did much less of all three and took up golf or fishing or anything that got you outside and beyond your internal obsessions you'd be a helluva lot happier. Tell me though---do you have no problem with simply dying and ceasing to exist? If the answer is no do you feel that you will continue to live vicariously through your offspring? Is that not a different way of defining eternal life---living through the next generation?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Once you accept that we're just another form of life that is totally disposable, life gets easy. You're not important in the scheme of things - you are only important to the people who's lives you touch. in which case i would ask them to go fishing with me. Being alone is no fun. Tell me this, though. If we are only important to those whose lives we touch, is that itself not spirituality?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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