Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Hi GDR,First of all, you have quoted a couple of my favorite books of the Bible. I love the first three chapters of John, and I think the book of Ephesians is soaring literature that still moves me although I no longer believe. I'm a little confused over your post though. You sound as if you are saying that the crucifixion was unplanned? I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you. I have never heard anyone say this.John 3:14-15 says "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up."Or Matt 16:21 " From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders chief priests and scribes, and be killed and raised the third day."Again I'm sorry but I don't quite get what you are saying...

Faith, Do you think that the penalty for picking up sticks, or lighting a fire, or cooking a meal should be death? Does it matter how seriously any religion takes any of it's own laws? What about modern Orthodox Jews? Do you really think they stage executions for breaking the Sabbath? They don't take it that seriously, why should you pretend to? 1 Sam 15:3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."This is one of several specific references to God commanding the killing of children and infants. He commanded the slaughter of infants Faith. And because your brain forces you to accept that God is good all the time, you are left with no option but to say that in this case the slaughter of infants is good.This is easy then. If you don't advocate the murder of children will you please renounce the commandment in that verse. Will you please tell us all that was a vile and brutal command that should not have been obeyed. This is easy for most of us... I despise and renounce that commandment as evil.But you aren't going to do that because your moral compass has been broken by your primitive religion. I bet you won't renounce it. Edited by Aussie, : Grammar correction...

Hi Faith,For better or worse I'm going to leave off this line of argument. Not because I feel you have made any valid points, I would readily admit it if I thought you had made a great case. It has more to do with the frustration I have seen with many other participants as they try desperately, in many different ways, to get you to come to terms with reality. I don't know why I expected anything different with me; perhaps I should have known all along. I'm not trying to be subtle here, Faith. I have explicitly rejected the authority of Scripture as the revealed Word of God in the same way I have rejected the Quran as the revealed word of God, or any supposed holy text of any religion as the word of it's particular deity. Your holy text is as important to you as the Quran is to any sincere Mulsim. But back to my pet peeve with you...When I asked you to renounce the evils of child and infant slaughter your reply was The moral bankruptcy that your primitive religion drives otherwise good people to is astounding; Faith! You are defending the killing of babies! You have no moral authority at all, don't presume to tell those of us who tend to look down on the slaughter of babies what is right and wrong. Your moral compass is broken...so broken you find yourself publicly supporting the killing of babies! I'm sorry I am beating this to death, Faith, but my mind is boggled. There is no logical argument one can formulate against someone who is arguing for the slaughter of infants, and calling it "Justice." Part of you has been broken Faith, and you can't see it.Admin... I apologize if this is too strong. Faith you are a good person, I don't mean to attack you personally. But I despise your haunted religious prison and the scary places it makes you plant your flag.

You aren't the martyr here Faith.You are the one supporting the killing.

Okay, Faith. "If' the Bible is God's word. In my particular field, I'm responsible for educating adult students from all over the world. I've been doing this for almost a decade and have been involved in the training of a couple thousand students, from around 50 or 60 countries. Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, you name it. On more than one occasion, although I try to avoid it, students have approached me and talked about their religious views. Very, very beautiful and sincere Muslims have spoken to me about being guided by God, and it reminded me so much of beautiful, sincere Christians being led by the Lord.I'll never forget talking to a young, sincere Hindu from India. He was telling me about his many Gods. His eyes were shining, and his face was bright and smiling as he told me several times, "They're real Rob, they are so real!" All I could do was smile back at him as I recognized the familiar Joy of the Lord on his face. It was really the Joy of the Lord...just a different Lord than yours.It doesn't occur to these people that Jesus is the Son of God on the Throne of the Universe, just like you never think to take their views seriously. And you all have the same reasons to believe...ancient text telling fantastical stories and an inner peace that makes you "Just know" that your personal God is the only true one. All of you have "Evidences" that prove to you that your religion is true. To an outside observer, the evidence is flimsy at best. You are just like everybody else. Your religion only seems special to you because it is yours. Have a freaking heart, Faith. Please do not refer to the slaughter of children and babies as "My particular moral objection." That is heartless and cold beyond comprehension.Can I remind you that you are using ancient religious texts in an attempt to justify the slaughter of innocent children! You are saying publicly and repeatedly that it is sometimes alright to hack wide-eyed and screaming children to death with long, sharp knives.ISIS also uses ancient religious texts to justify the killing of children, and they also say it publicly. Can you really see no resemblance?I do not believe for a second you would ever intentionally hurt anyone, but you are consenting to it, and calling it good. The casual brutality of your words has just rocked me back on my heels.

I see people from two religions currently justifying the murder of children. ISIS is saying that it's good today and Faith is saying it was good not all that long ago when you think about it. Very little difference, the difference of a few years. What difference does the passage of time make when you are killing children? In both cases a child has died. Of course not, our secular governments de-fanged the dominant religion of the West a long time ago. We don't let Christians persecute anymore. Events like the Salem Witch Trials left a bad taste in our mouth, so we stopped silly Christians from hurting people who were different from them.Unfortunately further East the governments have been unable to bridle the power of the religious fanatics and so ISIS can do what it does. Dude. Please don't YOU start defending genocide and the slaughter of children like Faith does. When is it EVER the right time, place and situation for genocide? If you had been in that time, place and situation, would you kill children? Faith refused to answer.

Ummm.... No. I would refuse. What about you?

Hi kbertsche, This is a massive difference between us, I completely agree. The difference is that we non-believers roundly and loudly denounce genocide and the killing of children. Please note it is you gentle, loving Christians saying that in certain cases, it is good and right to slaughter babies because of their parents' religion. There is a yawning moral chasm between us. The unending Scriptural theme of killing good things, of a God that delights at the scent of blood, especially innocent blood is utterly abhorrent. What this God does to you is merciless. Please note you are good people forced to acknowledge that the slaughter of babies is good. Delight in the death of the innocent...being pleased at the shedding of innocent blood is evil. Please stop pretending you have the moral high ground. You have no moral credibility. You hope you would try to kill your child.What. The. F%$#.

Hi again Faith, God asking Abraham to sacrifice his Son in Issac was both a test of Abraham's trust in the faithfulness of God's word, and also a foreshadowing or type of God's own willingness to sacrifice His Son on the Altar of Calvary a few thousand year's hence. The angel of the Lord stopped him as the knife was about to plunge into Isaac, and the ram caught in the thicket was substituted for the life of Isaac just as later God the Father planned to substitute our death for the death of Christ in the Atonement. I typed this in two minutes without looking anything up. How did I do for a cursory overview? What am I missing?

Because killing the innocent instead of the guilty is morally bankrupt.Because genocide of an entire population because of religious differences is moral bankruptcy.Because killing children and babies over their parents' religion is moral bankruptcy.Because demanding that a parent slaughters their own child is moral bankruptcy.Because publicly approving the slaughter of children and babies is moral bankruptcy.Because hoping you would have the faith to try and kill your kid is moral bankruptcy.Because requiring copious quantities of agony and bloodshed is the exact opposite of "Forgiveness."God could have forgiven. He chose instead to kill.And kill He did, by the hundreds of thousands. Edited by Aussie, : Added quote...

So we can agree that human sacrifice is evil...Glad to have you publicly disavow at least this evil. But Jesus was one hundred percent man as well as one hundred percent God.The human part of him was sacrificed. Edited by Aussie, : additional text.

This is the not so subtle point I'm trying to make. God didn't forgive...God killed.God demands and extracts cruel and brutal punishment, and then turns around and markets it as "Forgiveness."The only reason He killed instead of forgiving is because He wants blood.

Hi Faith,Lots of causally brutal words infused with and dripping self-righteousness.This is so ugly.You are saying it's okay to kill over religion. Under the right circumstances it's good to kill children, even babies.Death, death, blood, dripping innocent blood...a sweet aroma in your God's nostrils.You refuse to denounce the slaughter of children. Your moral compass is broken. You have nothing to say to us about morality.

So...this human sacrifice in the case of YOUR religion is okay?Just like the killing of children for YOUR particular religion is okay?You are making lots of scary exceptions for your own religion that you call evil in another religion.Edited by Aussie, : spelling

No, no Faith. We can all hear you loud and clear. But your words are morally bankrupt.