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Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
The connection is on the astronomy program. It's right there, the entire image, it isn't made up, it's exactly the image of the Revelation 12 woman, exactly, sun, moon stars, the works.. Absent the astrology, where is the woman? Do the stars in question look to you anything like a woman? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sigh.
You can't "absent the astrology." The image, the fiction, the constellation, the imputed meaning, of Virgo as traced in the stars, on the day of Rosh Hashana in September of 3BC, is exactly described by the woman in Revelation 12.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This is getting funny.
Try again. John had a vision of the astrological fiction of Virgo, the fictional image of Virgo, the traditionally imputed meaning of the fictional sign of Virgo, the imputed astrological meaning of the constellation of Virgo, as it appeared in relation to the sun and moon on Rosh Hashana 3 BC. There is no doubt that's what his vision was about. That fictional astrological character called Virgo on that day. Let's see how many other ways this can be wacked up. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
quote: How much of the above did John see? Where are the birth pains?
quote: What about this stuff? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. How much of the above did John see? Where are the birth pains? I'd just be happy to get across that the first image is clearly of the constellation Virgo in her usual presentation as a woman, on Rosh Hashana of 3BC because on that date the sun and moon are in the positions described in the vision. I assume John saw everything he described, it doesn't all have to be literally in the stars. Larson first decided that date was Jesus' birth, then decided maybe the conception. If the birth the birth pangs are of course implicit. ABE: As I pointed out in a few posts, the moon at her feet represents her child, the question is whether the new moon represents birth or conception. The reason Larson decided probably conception is that he found the bright "star" nine months later. /ABE Since understanding that the woman represents an astrological sign I've wondered about the dragon. There's a dragon among the (non-Zodiac) constellations it could be referring to, but that's not part of the Star presentation. abe: I have a "star chart" somewhere that shows the constellations but can't find it at the moment. /abe Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I'd just be happy to get across that the first image is clearly of the constellation Virgo in her usual presentation as a woman, on Rosh Hashana of 3BC because the sun and moon are in the positions described in the vision. You cannot get there. Again what it seems you want to do is to link about an astrological dream to real astronomy so you can date the birth of Christ. Heck, you even believe that you can identify conception. I think there are several problems. 1) a dream can easily be prophecy without reflecting an astronomical event at all. The story is the important part.2) astrology is just made up stories about myths. The connection of that to real world events is completely bogus. At least that is my take on things. Obviously, the Chaldean's believed differently. 3) the connection being pushed here is superficial and apparently limited to small parts of the text. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
It has to make you ask why scripture is referring to this random bunch of stars in terms that accept its status as a constellation depicting a woman called Virgo which is rising with the sun, with the new moon of Rosh Hashana at its "feet." It's in "heaven" and associated with twelve stars. This is no mere coincidence, NN. Perhaps the author was familiar with the Zodiac and knew what they were looking at? Then, the details of the imagery in the Bible being artistic?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'd just be happy to get across that the first image is clearly of the constellation Virgo in her usual presentation as a woman, on Rosh Hashana of 3BC because the sun and moon are in the positions described in the vision. You cannot get there. Again what it seems you want to do is to link about an astrological dream to real astronomy so you can date the birth of Christ. Heck, you even believe that you can identify conception. I don't have any motivations about dating anything. I saw the Bethlehem Star video, finally concluded he made some important discoveries about the Star and related events in Christ's life and death, encountered a mountain of objections here and have been trying to make a case for what was discovered by Larson because I found it credible. Not a big thing to date the conception since it would have presumably been the result of the Annunciation. So it depends on whether the crescent moon signifies the birth or the conception, that's all. I think the other phenomena associated with that Rosh Hashana point to the conception. But I'm not particularly arguing for any particular date even though I think Larson's are well evidenced. This discussion is simply about the objections to the Bible's apparently referencing an astrological sign. I get the reason for the objections, but I also find them bullheaded after the evidence has been made so clear.
I think there are several problems. 1) a dream can easily be prophecy without reflecting an astronomical event at all. The story is the important part. Of course, but in this case the evidence points to the astronomical event. And it was a vision, not a dream.
2) astrology is just made up stories about myths. The connection of that to real world events is completely bogus. At least that is my take on things. Obviously, the Chaldean's believed differently. None of this is relevant as long as it is only too clear that John's vision was of an astrological sign. So it's a myth, so it is nevertheless attached to a grouping of stars called Virgo and that's what he saw. I didn't make this up, it appears to be what he saw.
The connection being pushed here is superficial and apparently limited to small parts of the text. The Star study was about the Star. In the process of searching for it on the astronomy program Larson turned up an unexpected astrological correspondence with the scripture. He wasn't looking for it, it is there, and related to the birth and death of Christ. He wasn't studying the Book of Revelation or any other part of the scripture that might also entail astrological symbols for all I know. He found what he found, it's objectively there, superficial or not. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Well, let's address Revelation 12
First this is supposed to be a "great wonder" and I don't see how the sun being in Virgo, with the moon at her "feet" qualifies. So the actual content of the vision is likely different. Second, the woman is described as giving birth, so I can't see how it can be considered a sign of anything else. Third, if the woman is a constellation how can she hide in the desert ? And what can the events after that mean ? I think that the idea that the original appearance is pure astrological symbolism is questionable unless the rest can also be explained in those terms.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Hello? The constellation itself is made up. Somebody imagined that a particular group of stars looked like a woman. The connection is on the astronomy program. It's right there, the entire image, it isn't made up, it's exactly the image of the Revelation 12 woman, exactly, sun, moon stars, the works. If you have a vision of Long John Silver, that doesn't prove he's real. If you see a fat man with a white beard, you'll think of Santa Claus whether you believe in Santa Claus or not. The connection doesn't make either the fictional character or the vision real.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Of course. Why can't he have a vision of something he can describe?
So John had a vision of this fictional astrological woman. It happens to be describable in the same terms as his vision.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Ringo ringo ringo. Sigh.
The contellations are made up, but oddly enough they are treated as objective realities. Even on the astronomy program the constellation of Virgo is a particular group of stars that is assigned the characteristics of a woman. It's really quite irrelevant that it's all made up because it is something people can actually point to in the sky. When the constellation Virgo is shown rising in the sky on the astronomy program in the Star film, on Rosh Hashana 3 BC, it is CALLED "Virgo," and it WAS "clothed with the sun and with the moon at her feet." The whole sky is marked out with constellations made up of particular groups of stars given names of mythical figures. It doesn't matter that it's all made up because the star figures don't change, they are always the same, they always designate the same characters, they are all treated as separate constellations that can be identified separately. They may differ from culture to culture but they are what they are in a given culture. ABE: SO, once a constellation, a particular group of stars, is recognized as having a particular character and identity it becomes part of a person's picture of the sky, so it is quite possible for John to have had a vision of the particular constellation of Virgo with the character of a woman rising with the sun and with the moon at her feet. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's always possible to demand that something should have other characteristics than it has, to the point that you can utterly ignore the characteristics it does have as insufficient by your exacting standards. The fact is that the actual phenomenon, the woman in Revelation 12, fits the description of Virgo on a particular date, doesn't disappear when you insist it be something other than it is, but I guess you can make it disappear for yourself at least, and do a good job of confusing other people with it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
By whom? Is the cloud that looks like a duckie treated as an objective reality too?
The contellations are made up, but oddly enough they are treated as objective realities. Faith writes:
Other cultures see a different image and CALL it something else.
When the constellation Virgo is shown rising in the sky on the astronomy program in the Star film, on Rosh Hashana 3 BC, it is CALLED "Virgo," and it WAS "clothed with the sun and with the moon at her feet." Faith writes:
That's what I'm saying. He wouldn't have had a vision of something he had never seen. He would naturally associate his vision with something he knew about.
SO, once a constellation is recognized as having a particular character and identity it becomes part of a person's picture of the sky, so it is quite possible for John to have had a vision of the particular constellation of Virgo with the character of a woman rising with the sun and with the moon at her feet.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: The whole sky is marked out with constellations made up of particular groups of stars given names of mythical figures. This makes me laugh....the contellations are made up of stars that have absolutely no relationship with each other. They were described by people who didn't know this.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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