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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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To the peanut gallery: (I could'nt have said it better myself) also pay attention ringo--
got questions? writes:
The rest of the article supports the idea that salvation is by faith alone through Christ alone.
Question: "Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?" Answer: The simple answer is that salvation by works seems right in the eyes of man. One of man’s basic desires is to be in control of his own destiny, and that includes his eternal destiny. Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and his desire to be in control. Being saved by works appeals to that desire far more than the idea of being saved by faith alone. Also, man has an inherent sense of justice. Even the most ardent atheist believes in some type of justice and has a sense of right and wrong, even if he has no moral basis for making such judgments. Our inherent sense of right and wrong demands that if we are to be saved, our good works must outweigh our bad works. Therefore, it is natural that when man creates a religion it would involve some type of salvation by works. Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How can I believe you when you doubt that the messenger even exists?
Consider
Matt 10:40-42 writes:
Jesus is essentially telling the Disciples to go spread the message. He who receives the messenger receives the message. (NIV)40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward." He who receives the disciple receives Jesus and whoever receives Jesus receives God. You keep telling me that the letter is more important than the envelope but it appears to me that the message gets spread better by receiving the messenger behind the message, as I have told you over and over and over and over. You tend to disagree, citing the fact that many who claim to know the messenger are professing empty faith. So around and around we go.... Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I get that. The scripture I quoted even supports what you say...giving a cup of water.... It's DOING what the messenger told you to DO. Frankly I dont see why we disagree. Im just telling you that messenger and message are equally important...whereas you are telling me that the message is everything.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
no...to use a better analogy...the message of the Disciple and Jesus Who sent him are equally important. The disciple cant very well be spreading the message if Jesus and God never existed.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Another way to look at it is that the letter and the author of the letter are equally important.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
But the message exists with or without Jesus or God. I get that. I'm thinking this out and could basically argue either way...On the one hand, jars argument that if the stories were simply tales told around a campfire they would still have value could be argued successfully. I suppose I will concede your point for now...though something in me wants to acknowledge the necessity of getting saved and receiving the messenger first..... Whereas you are eternally holding out for evidence. I can't fathom being a lifelong skeptic and yet advocating doing the message sent by a non-existent Ghost. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Gosh, I hope I dont have the same brand! I have no inner nor justifiable hatred that I know of...
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
My only observation is that you essentially have thrown all of the Bible out except Matthew 25.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I don't. I realize the wisdom behind it....but I think some of us can end up finding works to do that make us feel good also...giving a bunch of homeless down-on-their-luck guys beer money and getting to know them may make ME feel good, but is it really what I am called to do? Not that I mind doing it...(I have my own people whom I help, and I feel that I can always do more...I battle my own selfish need to hold on to my money versus doing for others, but I am getting better)....
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
if all you do is give them beer money and listen to their sob stories on a bar stool next to them, you are not helping them do anything except express their frustrations and excuses in life.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You certainly make a case for corruption within organized religion. We know it happens, but we can't vilify everyone. Can we make the claim that Luther, Calvin, and the early church fathers invented salvation by grace alone through faith alone? And if so, can we attribute ulterior (greedy) motives?
jar and ringo provide the counter-argument that Christianity is about what we actually do for others...no strings attached. What gets me is that God is not even needed for this good action to occur...we all may well be altruistic secular humanists. And of course, that negates the idea of original sin. What do you think of the doctrine of original sin? Why did they market that one?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: So are you supporting the idea that Calvin (and perhaps Luther also) were cons? That the church marketed to acquire a paying audience? Original Sin is the ultimate con-job, the perfect fraud. It simply says "I know it's not your fault and that YOU didn't bring sin into the world but YOU are still damned and only if you kiss Hank's Ass will you get saved. Oh, and if there is not any after life or if after you die you find out you really are damned for all eternity ... tough nuggies. "Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: So is pride.
...Unfortunately, religion is often a stumbling block to our best instincts.Psalms 14:1 writes: Granted the passage goes on to say that there is none who does good....which you could argue is precisely not what you advocate. The jury is still out on whether a relationship or acknowledgment of Jesus Christ is even necessary...some of us believe that it obviously is required. You, on the other hand, believe that the good works are all that is required and if God exists, He will sort the sheep and goats to their respective destinies. The fool says in his heart, There is no God.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: So you think that it is impossible for a Creator of all seen and unseen to impress upon you? What would your idea be of God if He did exist? That He would simply tell us that we already know the essential message and thus should simply go and do? I say if there was a God He wouldn't be as stupid as you make Him out to be. That we need not concern ourselves with His guidance on a living real-time basis? That by doing unto the least of these we are already doing unto Him? What is God going to do in the meantime? Wait for us to complete our lives and grade us on a curve? I suspect that you don't count on Him actually existing and are preparing to grade yourself. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
(I picture the Judgement - if there is one - as God asking, "Remember that guy who asked you for spare change at 8:47 GMT on September 22, 2018? Explain your reaction, please.") I might say that I saw that same guy stealing from my place of employment and decided that I was not going to cast pearls before swine. He may well chastize me for judging, however. I doubt He would be surprised at my response. AS I have said elsewhere, once you let everyone in your house you either have to change them or accept them as they are. Whether God wants me to throw my earnings around indiscriminately or not has not been determined. Would you mind giving your hard earned money to someone who had no respect for social order?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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