Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8936 total)
24 online now:
dwise1, jar, Percy (Admin) (3 members, 21 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume: Total: 861,697 Year: 16,733/19,786 Month: 858/2,598 Week: 104/251 Day: 57/24 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1367 of 1677 (847005)
01-15-2019 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1366 by Thugpreacha
01-15-2019 9:31 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:

You cant have free will in a house with all inside and no outside.

Why not?

Why can't I freely choose to use the top floor bathroom or the basement one?
Why can't I freely choose to get closer and (possibly) love the woman in the family room while I stay away from the ones I don't like so much in the foyer?
Why can't I freely choose to build electronics in the den vs. swimming in the indoor pool?

Are you saying that because I can't choose to go outside I can't make any decisions at all? How... unimaginative.
That, seems to me, is like saying because I can't choose to breathe underwater then I can't make any decisions at all. But... we do make plenty of decisions without being able to breathe underwater... so this is obviously not true.

And if we can keep free-will, and especially the free-will to choose good, without requiring all-possible evil decisions... why not do that?

What possible connection is there between some terrible person choosing to punch someone else in the face to my choice to freely decide to love my wife over other women at the bar?

If I was physically unable to decide to punch people in the face, I would still have the ability to freely choose to love my wife over the other women at the bar.

Do you seriously not see this separation?
"All-evil" is not required in order to make good, meaningful decisions.
Besides - we already don't have access to all-evil. I can't decide to suddenly wipe out half-the-planet by the snap of my fingers. Such power is not possible for us. Does that mean we don't have free-will? Of course not. That's just silly.

This idea of "evil is required to have good!" is flatly false. It really shows nothing more than a lack of imagination.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1366 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-15-2019 9:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1368 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-15-2019 10:05 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1369 of 1677 (847007)
01-15-2019 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1368 by Thugpreacha
01-15-2019 10:05 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:

You don't really expect Him to allow everyone into heaven and give them the right to ignore Him now do you?

I don't really "expect" anything of a God (other than to be more-powerful or otherwise "better" than humans.)

But, in answer as to if it's possible or not:
Why not?

I would.

Are you saying that I have more self-esteem than God?

Edited by Stile, : Typo here, typo there, everywhere a typo!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1368 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-15-2019 10:05 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1371 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-15-2019 10:22 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1372 of 1677 (847010)
01-15-2019 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1371 by Thugpreacha
01-15-2019 10:22 AM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:

Cant you accept the fact that a Deity would know more about how things must be than any created angels or humans?

Of course.

I don't see how this is in conflict with a God who has enough self-esteem to not care if some people ignore Him?

If God creates "the best" place... why must He also only allow those who fan-boy all over Him?
Why can't God create "the best" place as well as not caring if some people ignore Him? - That's what I would do.

(The counter-argument would assert that humans created the concept of the deity and could therefore also make up the parameters.)

This is not the counter-argument.
The counter-argument is that a God who's self-esteem is below that of a high school rookie doesn't seem like much of a God.

Edited by Stile, : More typos are proof that I am not God...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1371 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-15-2019 10:22 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1391 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-17-2019 6:55 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1383 of 1677 (847038)
01-16-2019 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1379 by GDR
01-15-2019 11:14 PM


GDR writes:

It offers an explanation but it does strike me that we had to have exactly right chemistry available and the light had to trigger something that caused light to evolve in a way that produced vision without any knowledge of what vision is.

This would only make sense if human vision was somehow able to "see" all wavelengths.
But, of course, this isn't reality.

Check out this link, especially the mini-picture where it shows the "visible light spectrum" along the full electromagnetic spectrum.
Visible Light vs. Full Spectrum

We actually only see about 5-10% of what we "could see" if vision was all that it possibly could be.
Ever see Star Trek: The Next Generation? Jeordi LeForge (the engineer) had some sort of vision problem. His eyes didn't work. But the available future technology made him a visor that took in wavelengths and transmitted the information directly to his brain for him... basically being his eyes. But, since it was intelligently designed, it could see a lot more than normal human eyes could. There were many story-lines where everyone would be baffled until Jeordi took a look and "saw" what was actually going on.

The reality that the visible spectrum is only a small percentage of what's available should tell us that our eyes are functioning at a "barely good enough" level rather than some sort of "intelligently designed" optimum set-point.

Maybe you are right but it does seem to me that allowing for a pre-existing intelligence is actually a simpler answer.

You've been saying something along these lines very often.

Let me get this straight. History of human knowledge growth:

*When people didn't understand something - many would have a "deep, intense feeling" that it must be caused by something supernatural (like by God) because it's just so complicated and so mysterious and so beyond our current level of comprehension and so interesting... there's no way it could come about by natural causes without an intelligence having a hand in it.

Like fire: almost everyone thought fire must be divine * In the same way you seem to think the origin-of-the-universe must be divine.
But they were wrong. We've figured out that fire has a non-divine, non-God, non-intelligent explanation.

Like lightning: almost everyone thought lightning must be divine * In the same way you seem to think the origin-of-the-universe must be divine.
But they were wrong. We've figured out that lightning has a non-divine, non-God, non-intelligent explanation.

Like weather patterns (famine, rain...): almost almost everyone thought weather patterns must be divine * In the same way you seem to think the origin-of-the-universe must be divine.
But they were wrong. We've figured out that lightning has a non-divine, non-God, non-intelligent explanation.

Like planetary motion: almost everyone thought planetary motion must be divine * In the same way you seem to think the origin-of-the-universe must be divine.
But they were wrong. We've figured out that planetary motion has a non-divine, non-God, non-intelligent explanation.

The latest in this line is now "the beginning of the universe."

You are free to believe/think that the beginning of the universe must be divine, that is your right in having your own mind and your own thoughts.
However - to say that such an idea is "simple" or "expected" or even "reasonable" in light of all the previous similar ideas that have turned out to have non-divine, non-God, non-intelligent explanations... is rather comical.

I'm not saying that a divine answer is "wrong" or that a non-divine answer is "right."
Because we don't know. Can't say either way.
But we can look at the previous history of similar lack-of-knowledge situations and see how they moved along. In light of those similar situations - it's only reasonable to anticipate that this answer will have a non-divine, non-God, non-intelligent explanation.

Of course, the reasonably anticipated answer isn't always the right one. But it usually is.

Edited by Stile, : Large chunk of the ending of my message went missing. Inserted now.

Edited by Stile, : Again.

Edited by Stile, : Again.

Edited by Stile, : Crosses fingers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1379 by GDR, posted 01-15-2019 11:14 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1384 by Stile, posted 01-16-2019 9:55 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1384 of 1677 (847039)
01-16-2019 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1383 by Stile
01-16-2019 9:49 AM


Ah... I was using an asterisk, followed by a space and then a left-angle-bracket, followed by a dash in my message.

I think that was being identified as a "comment" and blocking out a large portion of my message-text.
Changed my formatting and it seems to be fine now. Sorry for all the figuring-it-out edits in my previous message.

Edited by Stile, : All better.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1383 by Stile, posted 01-16-2019 9:49 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1388 of 1677 (847062)
01-17-2019 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1387 by GDR
01-16-2019 6:28 PM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
GDR writes:

I suggest that as humans we want to find concrete reasons to support our faith.

Really?

I don't understand how any reasonable person can make such suggestions.

I'm assuming you have no problems understanding that different people may have different levels of attraction to different flavors of ice-cream, yes?
Wouldn't you think that "ice-cream" is a lot simpler and less-important than "finding concrete reasons to support our faith?"

So, on one hand, we have an incredibly simple and low-importance issue for humans to deal with (ice cream flavor comfort.)
-And you would think it very strange if I stated something like "I suggest that as humans we want vanilla ice-cream for dessert."

However... we then take an incredibly complex and high-importance issue for humans to deal with (finding reasons to support our faith.)
-And you don't see any problem whatsoever with making assumptions that "all humans" should be leaning in a single, specific direction??

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

What this statement should really say, and it makes much more sense this way, is:

"I suggest that some humans want to find concrete reasons to support their faith."

Many humans have a tendency to want to be part of a group - especially the "all humans" group.
They want to justify their own behaviours by saying things like - "See? Everyone does it! I'm normal!!"

It is my suggestion that this is what you're doing here.
Perhaps you have a personal inclination in "being part of the big group of agreement" and want your ideas to be "the ideas" that everyone else has too.

Unfortunately, such things don't exist even for simple issues like ice-cream comfort.
They really don't exist for complex issues like finding reasons to support our faith.

If you'd like to speak more about this line-of-thought... it's exactly what I'm attempting to discuss in my other thread: We must believe in what we're made for

I do believe you're right... for many people.
Just very far from "all people."
I think there's an equal amount of "many people" who do not prioritize finding concrete reasons for their faith... they put their faith as a lesser priority and would rather focus on "finding concrete reasons for reality" regardless of what that may do (or not do) to their faith.

I don't think there's a right or a wrong in a general sense... just different strokes for different folks.

Of course, in a specific sense... there would be right or wrong applications of the different ideas for identifying different answers.
If you're looking to describe reality... perhaps you might want more people dedicated to reality than their faith.
If someone is looking for help with their faith in a religion... perhaps you might want to include more people dedicated to their faith.

He says that the key to understanding the physical world is mathematics, an invention of the human mind. The fit between rationality in our minds and rationality in the world is to be expected if the world is a creation of the mind. Again it is not hard evidence but it is suggestive that we are the result of intelligence.

But science readily admits it doesn't have all the answers.
Science readily admits it has not identified any "key to understanding the physical world" and that many questions remain.
Science readily admits that it's possible that we'll never have all the answers.
Therefore... there currently is no "fit between rationality in our minds and rationality in the world" - only on a superficial level (the level you and I are most used to). Such a thing does not exist when Scientists examine the details. There are too many confusing unknowns that persist.

According to your own quote, then... if a key does not yet exist (and may not ever) and this rational connection between human-minds and reality doesn't exist yet (and may not ever)... does this imply that we are not the result of intelligence?

Edited by Stile, : Added second quote and remarks


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1387 by GDR, posted 01-16-2019 6:28 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1392 by GDR, posted 01-17-2019 6:58 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1389 of 1677 (847065)
01-17-2019 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1387 by GDR
01-16-2019 6:28 PM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
GDR writes:

Why I have come to the conclusion, and have faith in that conclusion, that we exist as a direct result of a loving god that wants us to reflect that love into the world, and you guys have not, is a mystery to me. It goes back to having free will I guess which also gives us freedom to believe what we will believe.

I don't see it as much of a mystery.

Only as big of a mystery as "different strokes for different folks."
As big of a mystery as why I like chocolate over vanilla, and others like vanilla over chocolate.

As humans, almost all of us have a subjective side.
That subjective side exists in all aspects of our life.

It exists in the simple, unimportant aspects - like ice cream flavor preference.
It exists in the complex, important aspects - like personal conclusions on if God exists or not.

It is up to each and every one of us to identify when and how best to use our subjective side.
It is also up to each and every one of us to judge when others are using their subjective side when they shouldn't be... or not using it when they should.

Again, this is the sort of thing I'm attempting to discuss over at We must believe in what we're made for, if you have further thoughts along this idea.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1387 by GDR, posted 01-16-2019 6:28 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1393 by GDR, posted 01-17-2019 7:01 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1430 of 1677 (847138)
01-18-2019 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1429 by Faith
01-18-2019 1:10 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Faith writes:

Demons are very well known, just not to you. And they love to make you all think they don't exist too, they make up all kinds of weirdly plausible explanations to explain themselves away.

Gullibility is very well known too.
And it loves to make you think Demons exist - in any way it can.

And for an even greater point - gullibility is factually known to exist!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1429 by Faith, posted 01-18-2019 1:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1438 by Faith, posted 01-18-2019 2:28 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1441 of 1677 (847154)
01-18-2019 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1438 by Faith
01-18-2019 2:28 PM


Re: experience with demon-possessed man
Faith writes:

...because of the heavy indoctrination against demon possession.

Just like the song!

"Let my... unicorns... gooooooo!!!!!"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1438 by Faith, posted 01-18-2019 2:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1445 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-18-2019 4:34 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1532 of 1677 (847327)
01-21-2019 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1391 by Thugpreacha
01-17-2019 6:55 PM


Re: Suffering with a loving God
Phat writes:

Getting back to the standards....it seems clear that Heaven and free will do not go together.

I don't know about that. I can imagine many versions of Heaven that work quite well with free will - and a loving, all powerful rule-making God.
But I agree that it seems clear that the idea of Heaven as described here - where everyone does what God wants all the time - and free will do not go together.

Otherwise, not all of the saints would sing praises for eternity. jar used to joking say that he could imagine no worse hell than a heaven where people did nothing but grovel and sing exultations 24/7!

Well, I could imagine many worse hells.
But this certainly does seem to make the grade of "a" hell.

Have you ever been bored in this temporary, mortal life?
How long do you think it will take for you to get bored if you have all of eternity of only doing one thing?

Remember this thread? Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1391 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-17-2019 6:55 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1533 of 1677 (847328)
01-21-2019 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1445 by Thugpreacha
01-18-2019 4:34 PM


Re: Unicorny Musings
Phat writes:

There is actually such a song?

No, I don't think so.
I just thought Faith was speaking about fanciful, foolish, silly things - so I decided to play along.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1445 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-18-2019 4:34 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019