Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith

Sounds like god or no god to me Given the evidence and what we already know, I think you have to have a belief to think that. I wish you guys would stop inflicting your own terminology on us. It's not a belief to not believe. It's more like an outstanding question. We don't know yet. Nobody is guilty - we haven't heard all the evidence yet. I realise it wouldn't change your mind, you'd simply invent a solution. But it would influence future generation's minds.

Well that assertion is deserving of its own thread.I'm not sure, but I accept generally that people appear to have a need for something like purpose. If you start a thread I'll join in. I suspect you mean that metaphorically but you shouldn't mix up heads and hearts like they're different things. You surely know that everything you know and feel happens in your head. It makes no sense to want to leave no evidence but send someone to earth to give all these messages and perform all sorts of circus tricks while he's here. It really is time to stop trying the reconcile ancient mythology with the voices in your head that you think is your god. If you think the voice is your god, why not just talk to him? The religion stuff is bunk and I think you're beginning to see that. Ok, so let's talk that one through.

We all know what you believe GDR; you've told us many times. What you believe about this is the usual rationalisations that don't do anything to explain away the problem.The problem of suffering has been worried over by religious folk for thousands of years and like you, they haven't got an answer. It's impossible to to reconcile the way life and death works on earth and a loving god that cares for us. You know that. Your only answer is that you believe it's all be ok in the end. That is no answer to the child dying slowly in pain of some hideous disease or the mother forced to watch the process.But not only do you have to explain why god allows the suffering, you have to explain why he couldn't have a creation without it. And of course he could because he's god and according to your book he's done it twice before, once with a paradise on earth and again with another in heaven.Biology has explained why there's suffering and why it's necessary. You can't explain why the god of the bible did it that way and will never be able to - all you can do is invent excuses. I simply can't understand why you need all the paraphernalia of religion to make things better for people that are suffering here.

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Now, let's take a case of someone who's been "dealt a bad hand". What about Frulein Fritzl, in Austria? Whose father, unwilling to get out of the way, kept her in a dungeon, where she didn't see daylight for 24 years. And came down most nights to rape and to sodomize her, often in front of the children who were the victims of the previous attacks and offenses. And it's only purely by accident that Herr Fritzl is now in custody. And it's a shame he's 76, because his life imprisonment isn't going to feel enough like that to him. I want you to just take a moment, since [religious apologists] are so interested in the downtrodden and the helpless imagine how she must have begged Him. Imagine how she must have pleaded. Imagine for how long. Imagine how she must have prayed, every day how she must have beseeched heaven. Imagine. For 24 years. And no, no answer at all nothing, NOTHING! Imagine how those children must've felt. Imagine what they felt when they saw one of their number, the dead twin, being borne away from neglect, on top of everything else. Now, [religious apologists] say; "That's allright, that she went through that, because she'll get a better deal in another life?" Are you- I have to ask you if you can be morally or ethically serious and postulate such a question!? "No, that had to happen! And heaven did watch it with indifference, because it knows that that score will later be settled. So it was well worth her going through it, she'll have a better time next time." I don't see how you can look anyone, ANYONE in the face or live with yourself and say anything so hideously, wickedly immoral as that. Or even imply it.
Christopher Hitchens

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That's such a terrible argument. If he can make heaven without evil there's absolutely no need to have it here. It's just plain silly.

I don't remember chosing free will, do you? Or are you saying that some random egit 100,000 years ago chose it so we all have to have it?Seems a pretty dumb thing to do; choose the freedom to nick stuff from shops instead of perfect happiness and lack of suffering forever. Seem likely to you?Is there free will in heaven?

And it has been pointed out to you multiple times that evolution can not be the 'mindless process' you (and science) say it is and still have a determinate outcome (ie us).No matter how hard you and ICANT try, you can't jemmy scientific discover into your beliefs - if for no other reason than you don't actually understand the science you talk about.And why do you even try?

So in summary, you and your pals had been attending a series of what you guys call 'charismatic' church services were demons were driven out and ills cured in dramatic ways. Then one of them that had been 'saved' by his mother (who dabbled with the occult) at 10 years old, got involved with a prayer circle at 2am and had a fit.Are you remotely surprised that that happened? I dunno, you guys amaze me constantly.A couple of weeks work in a mental hospital would cure you of this nonsense, you'd realise what contortions the mind can put people through when just a bit out of whack. Amongst many others, I've met three Jesus's and one seagul who was convinced he could fly if only they'd unclip his wings. I've seen devils and extraordinary fits involving self-harm and wall climbing attempts. I've witnessed a guy try to gouge his own eyes out because they showed him terrible things. Nothing is unusual in mental wards.I once did a road trip with a friend and we tried to drive without stopping for 2 weeks. After 4 days my friend who was driving woke me up and got me to drive to a motel. He said he'd just seen an American Indian canoe with seven Indians in full war paint and feathers overtake him in the fast lane - paddling down the freeway. Clear as day, absolutely real. He slept for 18 hours.Put all this nonsense behind you, there are always real world explanations for these thing. You're back in the superstitious past were mental illnesses were demons, devils and the supernatural. We now know better. Well most of us anyway.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Which bits were wrong? Come on Phat you immediately thought it was demonic posession didn't you? And still do I'm betting. It was a purely religious reflex, it wouldn't cross a non-religious person's mind that it was anything but a mental thing.

I'm sure you have, you believe all sorts of rubbish.
Doctors disagree with you. You think people can't make different voices?And you think a demon would? Why?

Doctors will explain what they see, if they see demons then demons become part of medicine. Demons don't exist so demons aren't part of medicine. Oh come on, that's just ludicrous and it's also not what Phat said. He said he was growling.

But then you're always wrong about everything. Yes it would! It would be fascinating. It'd be pretty cool if the supernatural was real Demons explain nothing. If they did, we'd have the explanation - we'd know for certain. We'd have rock solid evidence, it would be easy. But obviously we don't, just like miracles, they never, ever happen where they can be studied, we just have crazies like you spouting unevidenced crap about natural phenomenon.

And voices come from mouths, not bodies. I see you're already making your excuses before you begin the experiment. Just like your rapture.But it's an easy one to prove, just do a little volunteering at your nearest mental hospital and try it. (Not that it hasn't been done a million times of course with precisely the outcome I prophesy with you - zip.) I also prophesy that you won't do it and give us several excuses.

Right silent and invisible. Almost like non-existent. People all over the world know it, but somehow it escapes the objective gaze of science. You'd have thought that those that believed this stuff could have produced the evidence to prove it, but nope, never done.

Prophesy fulfilled.

It certainly does. But if the silent and invisible spiritual world was real it certainly wouldn't and couldn't.