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Author | Topic: What Benefits Are Only Available Through God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
On the contrary, he could have the same comfort just by being a positive person with no reference to God at all. The comfort is entirely internal, so it can not be cited as a benefit only available through God. Even if God does exist, He really has nothing to do with that comfort. I'm not holding that up as proof of God, but it is giving him a peace that he wouldn't have otherwise.Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That's exactly my point. If we can't know the "actual" source of his comfort, we can't realistically claim that it's "only" available through God. For that matter we can't know whether or not the person who finds comfort simply because they are a positive person is that way because of God, whether they believe in Him or not.Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
I think "meaningless" is preferable to a "meaning" imposed by an alien overlord. If there is no god then our existence is ultimately meaningless. The "meaning" in a cow's life is to be food for us. Don't you think a cow would prefer to find its own meaning?Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Does it occur to the cow that we are "helping" it? Did it ever occur to you that this so-called alien could actually help you?Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That's your own white-washed version. It isn't what most Christians believe. It isn't what Jesus said. However, it isn't imposed, we are completely free to reject that and live out lives based on self love and the gaining of personal wealth and power, and of course, everything in between.Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
You can if there's an "or else" attached. And that's exactly what Jesus said: Love your neighbour and you inherit the kingdom. Don't love your neighbour and you go to everlasting torment. How can someone command me to love my neighbour? He may be a jerk. You can't just command someone to love in the same way that you can command someone to not commit murder.Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
Then you don't understand it. It's exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 25.
First off I don't understand Jesus as having said that. CSLewis writes:
That's just egregiously stupid.
All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. GDR writes:
That is not what Jesus said. He said that those who help others will inherit eternal life.
If someone chooses to base their life on self love and self promotion... GDR writes:
No it isn't. It's about the hands.
It is all about the heart... GDR writes:
Have you even heard of the Bible? Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love thy neighbor. And He used the parable of the Good Samaritan to explain that even your worst enemy counts as your neighbor.
...people can't be commanded to have love, even under threat, for someone or some group when they hate them. GDR writes:
That's exactly it. You can fake loving somebody "in your heart". You can say, "Lord! Lord!" till the cows come home. But it's what you do with your hands that shows real love. They might fake loving someone for that reason but they can't actual hold it in their heart.Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That isn't a "choice" any more than falling into a trap is a choice. The one who set the trap is entirely to blame.
You choose hell by default when you deny that Jesus exists. Phat writes:
Yes, indeed. Let the record so state in bold upper-case letters as if Faith wrote it. Maybe I'll put it in my signature.
Let the record state that ringo dismisses CS Lewis as "egregiously stupid. Phat writes:
Instead of just mocking what I say, why don't you make an argument?
Let the record show that ringo also dismisses the author of the Gospel of John. Phat writes:
For us. See what the tree of knowledge did to us?? It made us more like God - but you and Faith think that's a bad thing.Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That doesn't change the fact that Jesus commanded people to love their neighbors.
The sheep performed loving acts for their neighbours, but if you notice they had no idea that they were doing it for Jesus. GDR writes:
Who said anything about "justice"? Who even cares about justice? The important thing is helping each other. The motivation is irrelevant.
If it is just about the good things that we do that makes us a sheep then that is hardly justice. GDR writes:
On the contrary, there's no difference at all. The visitor eats the same food and sleeps in the same bed, regardless of your motivation. I can make a decision that I am going to be a sheep and invite an enemy into my home because that will get me in good with Jesus. However it is something all together different to invite an enemy into my home because I genuinely care about him.Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
But it isn't. If you obey the command to love, you don't have to be commanded not to kill.
Yes, but as I keep pointing out to you, commanding someone to love is very different than commanding someone not to kill. GDR writes:
No. The command to love is a command to do loving actions.
The killing is a physical action where as commanding someone to love is to command an emotional reaction. GDR writes:
It isn't about rewards. The point of Matthew 25 is that God's will is about what you do, not about what you profess. It doesn't matter what your motivation or your attitude is; what matters is your physical actions. A big part of what made the sheep sheep was that they were doing it without thought of reward.Izquierdo.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Isaiah was written to the Jews , and by extension, if you like, to Christians. It is not about secular humanists calling evil good; it's about Jews/Christians calling evil good. Isaiah 5:8-21 warns us of excesses. It speaks of the sin that you naive secular humanist liberals make against Christianity and the God whom you deny exists.Izquierdo. |
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That's an empty claim - and a self-serving one. You can always claim that you really, really, really do love but without the actions, there's no reason to think that you do. By their fruits ye shall know them.
The loving actions are symptoms of a loving heart. GDR writes:
It doesn't matter to anybody, except maybe a badly warped god. The only thing that matters is the action.
Sure it doesn't matter to the person that is the beneficiary of the action. GDR writes:
That isn't what Jesus said. He didn't mention anything but the actual action. If you're motivated by wanting to "serve Jesus", that is not love. However, if the the individual in question is expecting something back in return for the loving action then it isn't really loving.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We already know the answer to that. Jesus would turn water into beer. Really, there's a whole book about this stuff. You should read it sometime. Would Jesus simply buy the homeless guy a beer or would Jesus buy him a meal?All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Where did He say that? Not in Matthew 25.
..but He did make it clear that the actions were done simply out of care for others. GDR writes:
Same thing there. All I see is the action itself, nothing about the motivation.
Another good exapmle is the "Good Samaritan". GDR writes:
Of course, loving your neighbour usually involves some expense to ourselves. That has nothing to do with love being in the heart. It's all about the hands. In this example it is even more clear that the command to love is more than just action, it also includes being prepared to love at our own expense.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Why can't you just take the Bible for what it says? Why do you have to twist everything to fit your pre-conceived apologetic agenda? How can you expect anybody to believe that Jesus isn't made up when YOU make up most of what you say about Him? Not for an alcoholic he wouldn't. It says that Jesus made wine. Period.
Phat writes:
You don't even know which end of the bat to hold. I tend to get arrogant when I knock these secular fastballs out of the park.All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
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