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Author | Topic: Did the Flood really happen? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Her choice of the word "pondered" rather than any active verb is interesting. To me it strongly implies sitting at home making stuff up. Especially when it seems to ignore a preponderance of evidence for an old earth... by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Here ya go: The Defeat of Flood Geology by Flood Geology This should have it's own thread by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I'm saying that the enormous abundance of fossils that we find in the geological column, even in any particular stratum, far exceeds what we should expect, ... Yet only in rare places (tar pits for example) do we see jumbled piles of fossils. Most are very much alone and random. Rarely is cause of death drowning. Paleontologists dig for days searching for fossils. That, imho, is not an "enormous abundance of fossils" but rather a small representation of the life that used to exist.
... and although it's acknowledge that fossilization is rare it is NOT acknowledged that it is way too rare to explain the abundance that actually exists. No I can't give statistics but as usual I would thlnk it intuitively obvious, and if statistics are necessary it will have to wait. What ever is "intuitively obvious" to one person is not necessarily so to another -- it depends on their level of understanding. For instance it is intuitively obvious to me that the earth is very very old, much older than all the YEC models combined, because of the evidence of tree rings, varves, ice layers, etc. and the radiometric evidence showing an age over 4.5 billion years. Obvious because there is no other possible explanation except that everything is all illusion.
radiometric dating? As I keep saying I put this one in the column for the ToE and that's the best I can do with it. Please see my answer to PK above: I can't answer all the challenges. As you do for the tree rings. When you keep putting the evidence of age in the "column for the ToE" you should at some point consider that it is "intuitively obvious" that the evidence points to old age.
the actual definition of Walther's law, how water actually does sort sediments, Wasn't RAZD's ananlysis of the Grand Canyon through Walther's Law good enough? But I fail to see why this matters so much. ... What Walther's Law shows is long periods of time for the different sediments to accumulate, as each of the sedimentation regimes need to develop, including the layers with evidence of marine life in mature developments, generation upon generation. It also shows a period of dry land in the middle of the canyon layers, which is also evidenced by unconformities in the layer surfaces (where erosion removed material) Here it is again:
quote:and Message 40 on the Depositional Models of Sea Transgressions/Regressions - Walther's Law thread quote: The gray layers are dry air deposits (sand dunes etc). The Carbonate and the Coccolith/Foram Ooze layers are deposits from generations of tiny marine organisms living and reproducing and dying. What this shows is a long period of transgression from the Vishnu/Zoroaster/Unconformity to the redwall/limestone and Temple Butte/limestone layers and then a long period of regression to the Coconino/sandstone dry air layer, followed by another period of transgression to the Kaibab/limestone layer, which is topped by an erosional unconformity. (Note - The Hermit/shale layer could be dry air or brown like the other shale layers, as this was a "quick and dirty" analysis).
... To my mind it's evidence that rising sea water DOES sort the same sediments we find in the geological column. ... Only when you ignore the time-scale that is involved for each of these depositional regimes to mature and deposit the amounts of sediments in the layers, and the evidence of dry air depositions and erosion unconformities. Remember that the radiometric evidence from the Grand Canyon shows it developed from west to east by erosion over several million years (see Age of Grand Canyon and Cave Speleothems )
... I can also point to river deltas where sediments are similarly sorted on a smaller scale. And along the edges of the continents too for that matter. Of course, because that is the proper application of Walther's Law. Those examples have developed over many years and multi-generations of marine life developments, not from a single year long event. You can't use evidence of long term depositions to represent short term events. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... The Bible shapes my agenda but my attempts to fulfill my agenda involve honest exploration of physical reality. Which of course intuitively would also include the obvious physical reality that the bible does not give an actual calendar time frame, and that the YEC age of the earth is a human invention/interpretation/construction made long after the bible was assembled from scattered documents. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The Bible gives a very reliable time frame. Except that it relies on assumptions that have made it difficult to reproduce, several attempts ending up with a wide variety of ages.
quote: In other words, picking and choosing different methods to arrive at a date ... based on interpretations and opinions ... and
quote: So it seems to me like both articles have equally valid reasoning resulting in "very reliable" time frames that are very different from each other, but using the same "evidence" ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Brief comment: Google search says there are 250,000 fossilized SPECIES, which has to mean a lot more individual fossils. ... Spread out over 3.5 billion years of life on earth, is one fossil species every 14,000 years. On average. That is rare to me. If there were 100 fossils of each species that would still be one every 140 years. Rare. + Marine fossils are a different matter with populations in the thousands for mature marine ecologies buried gradually by sediments and the continued growth of marine organisms on the ocean floors, generations covering generations, as seen in the fossils on - and in - mountain tops.
... And some fossils are found more packed together than others. ... As I said, tar pits for example, but most are not. And that makes individual +land based organism/+ fossils even rarer.
... IN ANY CASE the fact that fossilization is rare under normal circumstances is far from accounting for what is actually there. Which is a record in time and space of the evolution of life, the temporal-spacial matrix, showing parent/daughter populations nearby in time and location, and not spread out all over the face of the earth. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : +by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... I don't know of any system that can legitimately get anywhere near millions of years. There is disagreement when looking at thousands of years.
quote: Note the implication that the author is the only real 'expert' ... instead of just one more of many so called experts. How does one know which so called expert to believe?
quote: Even assuming that Ussher's genealogies were complete you have assumptions on the lengths of lives lived and how they overlapped, giving a wide range of results. Assumptions and opinions at odds with different "so called experts" ... still not what I call "a very reliable time frame." Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... but didn't he say after how there are so many disagreements that some of them actually reinterpret the Bible on the basis of what science has to say? That is totally bogus. ... Science can only uncover the physical reality of the actual creation ... if the bible is true. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If you understood geology, you would see that what you describe is a stratigraphic column, showing only the sedimentary rocks ina given area. Correct me if I'm wrong (geology not my strong suit) but this column is specific to an area, they can be different in different places, and they could include all the rock layers down to molten core.
quote: Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Person B: The reason the sky is blue is because the atmosphere absorbs other frequencies of light, leaving only blue. ermmm ... ... he sky is blue because the atmosphere absorbs the blue wavelengths and then re-emits them (photon in, photon out ... in random direction). It doesn't do this with other frequencies, so their light (photons) comes to us directly from the sun, not spread over the sky. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... What happened was I wanted to watch a You Tube program. A box appeared blocking a lot of the picture ... Some public computers have filters to block certain websites so that undesirable sites cannot be accessed. You may have run into that. FYI I use two free programs on my computer: 1. Spywareblaster -- free download HERE You can do "manual" and periodically (example first of the month) check for updates to download and activate, or you can pay a small fee and have automatic updates. I do the manual downloads (cause I'm a cheap bastid) If you do a lot of cruising on the internet, some webpages you visit will leave trojans to gather information about your uses/preferences. This is "malware" and they are blocked by this program. They keep adding new ones so updates are necessary. 2. Glary Registry Repair -- free download HERE You can do a manual scan of the registry files and then repair any defects that occur. Again once a month is more than adequate. This helps the computer run smoother and faster. The registry files tell the computer where the program files are and how they are organized. AND And then once a year or so you should defrag your hard-drive so that it resorts the bits and pieces on the hard drive so that they are near each other. If you create and delete a lot of files the computer ends up putting them in bits and pieces where there are empty spaces on the disk. The more fragmented your disk is the slower it operates. Happy cruising.by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
What part of Arizona? And what depth is shown here? You need a lot more information We also have cores from Lake Suigetsu and Cariaco Basin showing the annual varves in each location. These layers show the annual accumulation of the geological column in those locations. For example:
This shows the geological column growing year after year with sediment and foraminifera shell deposit extending to 12,724 BCE. (The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1), Message 20) Similar cores in Lake Suigetsu extend to 40,149 BCE and we also have this diagram of depth vs age
with the bottom layer at 35 meters (115 feet) below the top layer. (The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1), Message 21) Another example of the geological column is provided in this chart of Pelycodus fossils:
quote: Have you never wondered why fossils are buried? They are buried by the gradual accumulation of sediments over time. Geological time. These cores also show there was no flood covering the world at any point during their formation. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Funny, as I recall, you have always been the one with the inability to understand physical reality. In any case, since this IS a debate, I DO disagree with you about my study of the Grand Canyon area and my conclusions. Curiously, you are the outlier when it comes to understanding the physical reality. Nobody agrees with you, yet we agree with one another. That's a clue. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
No, but there are places where it is so extensive there is no doubting that its overall extent far exceeds anything being deposited today. ... except when you look at the actual time for those accumulations and compare them to the rates of accumulation we see today, it all falls in place. Literally. So your problem comes down to time, and what is real actual time. Again I direct you to Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 which shows that (a) there was no flood for the duration of the annual counting methods for measuring time, and (b) that there was plenty of time for the slow accumulation of sediments on the ocean bottoms that later became Utah. For example: From Message 831 we see 35 meters deposited over 42,000 years at Lake Suigetsu. That's 0.8333 mm per year, and over a million years that would result in sediment 833.33 m thick. We know this time because of the annual layers of the diatom/clay varves, confirmed by 14C dating calibrations. Plenty. Given actual geological time. Without any floods. Enjoy Edited by Admin, : Fix obvious typo: "833.33 km" => "833.33 m"by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
From Message 831 we see 35 meters deposited over 42,000 years at Lake Suigetsu. That's 0.8333 mm per year, and over a million years that would result in sediment 833.33 km thick. We know this time because of the annual layers of the diatom/clay varves, confirmed by 14C dating calibrations. 35 meters in 42,00o years is 0.833 mm per year fine. But 1 million times that is only 833,300 mm which is 833 meters not kms. 0.833 mm per year is 833 mm per thousand years, 833,333 mm per million years, 833 m per million years. That's 2,734 feet, or ~1/2 mile. Still significant, imho. Thanks Edited by RAZD, : correct late night math.by our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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